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Thread: Free Speech, Part II

  1. #1
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    Default Free Speech, Part II

    There is now an undercurrent of a threatened boycott of Kifaru because the message board is not censored. I have been threatened with personal and professional ruin, as well as physical injury, for moderating this MB in a way that does not suit the speech fascists.

    And don't be confused: this is exactly that. The Speech Fascists are a lynch mob, intended to lynch Tim Sundles and anyone who won't grab a rope with them. The fact that he is allowed to post on the Kifaru MB infuriates them, despite the fact that he's challenged by others who don't share his views. Banning speech makes nothing go away.

    Apparently, unless we disagree by banning him from the MB, shooting him with a 30-06, and feeding him to the wolves, we won't satisfy the Speech Fascists. As if they'd ever be satisfied.

    And the fact that we won't let a lynch mob develop on this MB also infuriates them. Patrick Smith pays for this MB, and allows controversial opinions to be aired out. He simply asks that you follow rules of polite debate, and keep this no worse than PG rated. He doesn't want to edit for content, and wants both sides to be heard.

    Here is a recent example. The name has been omitted. If he wants his 15 minutes of fame, it won't be because of me. This email is unedited, except for my last name. Typos and grammatical errors are the author's own:

    Referring the problem to your moderator Kevin will not yield results. He is sympathetic to Sundles. According to one person, they sent an email to Kevin stating the possibility of a boycott and his reply was that he didn't care, he wasn't connected to Kifaru or something to that effect.

    I also read that the Boycott may extend to Mountainsmith as well.

    I really could care less, I just will not buy your products. It's your company and your name that are being linked with the illegal killing of wolves and unless you do something about it, I imagine the word will continue to spread.

    The following is what was sent to me, when I inquired about Kifaru products on thebackpacker.com and when I went to the kifaru,net forum there were a lot of nasty remarks about an individual who had evidently called Sundles out. There were particular references to his war record and upon further investigation and correspondence I learned that he is a decorated war hero with several silver stars and purple hearts. Because of that manyveerans are also urging a boycott.

    It's a shame to see a valued product name lose it's reputation because of a few individuals, but if it's on your forum, it bears your name. Either you clean your house or you suffer the consequences.

    These are Sundles quotes from your message board. Since removed when the wolf shooting incident became public. So the appearence is that they were removed only so they could not be used as evidence. If your moderator says they wern't there, he is a liar. (If I were seven feet talk, I could dunk a basketball.) Do a search on "Sundles" and you will find that your message board is referenced in regard to these posts.

    Cleanup of your forum should start with the moderator.

    (Moderator's Notes: I'll bet $1000 that if I quit moderating, it won't change a thing. Any takers?)


    Here's another stellar example:


    The First Amendment does not grant people the right to encourage people to break the law. Since the wolves are protected, Sundles references to shooting them and encouraging others to shoot or poison wolves is not protected by the first Amendment.
    For a person to commit such acts is despicable. For a forum that is supposedly about "sport" to allow such material is irresponsible.
    I respect your right to run your forums in any way you choose.
    However I will join the people who will try to make you understand that what is being allowed to be posted there is a slap in the face to true sportsmen and hunters by making you feel it financially.
    It's really a shame that such a respected name in the outdoor community will be linked with Tim Sundles and the anti-wolf fanatics.
    In regards to restraint against verbal abuse. If that is your policy, from what I have seen it is being ignored in certain cases. The remarks that were directed towards a person who I do not believe is even a member of your forum were downright shameful. So, I will assume that it is ignorance on your part and not hypocrisy.

    Name removed to not give the author 15 undeserved minutes of fame.

    Patrick asked me to publish these emails to show what he deals with, and to shine the light of truth on this attempt to squelch debate. The editorial comments are mine, and mine alone.
    This message board is here to advance the art of back-country hunting, fishing, and soldiering in a spirit of good fellowship. Some of the best hunters and finest folks in the world post here. If you're new, welcome, learn, and contribute.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Free Speech, Part II

    This is pathetic. I'm a Kifaru customer and lurker here. I don't participate much but I can't let this pass. For the record, I am pro-wolf and disagree with Tim Sundles and others on many things. So what. If I don't agree I don't have to read his stuff. I don't have to read the Politics forum. I could write him a letter or post a message with my thoughts. Kifaru provides an excellent place to denounce him publicly, as has been done by others . I would never think of complaining to Kifaru, threatening a boycott (which I think would likely have no effect on Kifaru at all), calling my mother, etc.

    I find it hard to believe that so many people think that this is the right and good way to respond to someone you don't agree with politically. I say post their names and let peer pressure solve the problem.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Free Speech, Part II

    I think its pretty rediculous that anyone should threaten to boycott Kifaru or Patrick Smith for supporting free speech. Patrick is easily one of the most professional, honest, good hearted men Ive met, and I dont dole out unwarranted praise on anyone. Kifaru is a good company, with good people, and youd be hard pressed to find anyone on their staff who is anything less than good honest people.

    I am absolutly disgusted by wolf poisoning, and wolf poisoners, and cant say Im a fan of those who support them... but They are free to say whatever they want. Kifaru is free to offer them a venue for their statements if they so choose. I also support people in disagreement with wolf poisoners to excersise their freedom of speech as well.
    If you love wealth more than liberty... We ask not your council or your arms... May posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
    - Samuel Adams

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Free Speech, Part II

    The people who would boycott Kifaru would not buy Kifaru gear anyway. This wolf thing just gives them a more clearly defined PC reason to not do so.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Free Speech, Part II

    First, I had no part in any of the above, have never privately contacted Kevin or Patrick. You can read my last post in the other free speech thread on this. I too have heard only good things about Patrick and Kifaru products.

    But...free speech works both ways. "Nearly all Idaho hunters are homo***uals" is free speech. (that's just a stupid example; for the record I have nothing against homo***uality.)Not allowing someone to call that a blatant fabrication and lie takes away THEIR free speech. (We don't call people liars here---remember---unless we have the proof to back it up. Go out and prove it, Kevin says, then you can call it a lie. That's his type of moderation.)

    Plus, we really have to decide when and if there is a line with free speech. Do we want Osama on here posting from some cave in Afghanistan, "death to America" and "here's a link to my website where you can learn how to poison people"? Is there a line? To my mind, Sundles is nothing but a terrorist. Others disagree. If spreading terrorism is to be allowed, then so be it. At least allow me the free speech to call out a liar.
    "Food is the field in which we daily explore our 'harming' of the world."
    Gary Snyder

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Free Speech, Part II

    For what its worth, I didnt find anything in a google search about Kifaru or MountainSmith being boycotted. The only mention of kifaru at thebackpacker.com has to do with the field chairs. backpacker.com has 6 mentions on their message board. one for the chair, one for the sleds, 3 for tipis, and 1 re ultraight packs. Oh, and the little mention about the editors choice award for the tipi
    If you love wealth more than liberty... We ask not your council or your arms... May posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
    - Samuel Adams

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Free Speech, Part II

    Bushrat, no further comments on how the board is moderated.

    Requiring that MB participants follow rules of decorum protects all who post. Otherwise, we're going to have people using opinion to call others a liar, and people using other opinion in response. Boo, hoo, I have to prove that someone is telling a lie rather than just assert it. Sorry, I'm not serving cheese with that whine.

    If you want a message board run like the War of the Roses, start your own. It'll look like a bad marriage, but you'll get your way. Otherwise, stand down.
    This message board is here to advance the art of back-country hunting, fishing, and soldiering in a spirit of good fellowship. Some of the best hunters and finest folks in the world post here. If you're new, welcome, learn, and contribute.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Free Speech, Part II

    I don't understand what these guys are talking about. I've more or less followed the wolf thing and never found much I would consider unethical or illegal there. (As far as I know it is not illegal to talk about poisoning wolves - or people for that matter, if it was most mystery story writers would be in jail).

    Also, just for the record, the First Amendment states that the GOVERNMENT will not pass laws restricting speech. Not being the government, I can restrict speech in my own living room all day long with impunity.

    Tim is outspoken on a subject that raises hackles and I suspect that some "Sundles" search turned up this message board. If Tim used a handle like "TimSun" or somesuch I doubt you would have heard from these guys. Somehow I doubt the folks claiming to boycott Kifaru never heard of it before that.

    As I have said before, I agree with Patrick's view on allowing a variety of opinion and viewpoints and hope that a few fools threatening dire consequence won't change that (and I doubt they will).

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Free Speech, Part II

    I guess the reference to the "decorated veteran" in the excerpted letter above had to mean Redhawk--why is this not surprising?
    "Neither sport nor art should be unnecessarily cluttered and complicated."

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Free Speech, Part II

    Bushrat, here's a tasty link for you, assuming you read the language. It's a very exclusive forum for Al Qaida operatives and supporters. This site enjoys a stellar reputation in a particularly dismal corner of the universe. The folks participating on it all advocate killing you. Are you questioning my right to post it here on the Kifaru forum? Are you going to boycott Kifaru products because I posted it here?

    http://www.alhesbah.org/v/

    Cheers
    "A Patriot Must Always Be Ready To Defend His Freedom Against His Government"- Edward Abbey

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