Mind food for intellectuals

[Patrick]

Hello all,

I've just finished a fine read, THE CASE FOR FAITH by Lee Strobel. Strobel is a lawyer, a journalist and former atheist. The book is a pointedly journalistic investigation of the toughest objections to Christianity. He examines eight of them, using experts, including atheists, as spokesmen...just as a reporter would. Here are the Objections, which are Chapters in the book:

#1) Since Evil and Suffering Exist, a Loving God Cannot.
#2) Since Miracles Contradict Science, They Cannot Be True.
#3) Evolution Explains Life, So God Isn't Needed.
#4) God Isn't Worthy of Worship If He Kills Innocent Children.
#5) It's Offensive to Claim Jesus Is the Only Way to God.
#6) A Loving God Would Never Torture People in Hell.
#7) Church History Is Littered with Oppression and Violence.
#8) I Still Have Doubts, So I Can't Be a Christian.

Head-on stuff. Thinkers will be gratified that Strobel's investigation isn't filled with vapid, glassy-eyed Airport Christian platitudes in the least. You must bring your brain along for the journey. He finishes up with a Conclusion Chapter that is a masterful summary of the very considerable evidence for the validity of Christianity. More validity than any other religion, certainly, including the Secular one that bases it's Faith on Darwinian Theory (a great deal of more recent Science than the Darwinians knew is discussed in detail).

I had already done much the same sort of investigating as Strobel did, moving from Agnosticism to Belief, and so there were no complete surprises to me about the very considerable "preponderance of evidence" on the matter of Christianity. The nature of "faith" was already pretty well known to me; God doesn't just appear in the sky and say "well, here I am, see?" because the whole Program is VOLUNTARY in Christianity. Examining the corroborative evidence is a first step. It's certainly plentiful. Then, as God promises, all you have to do is ASK, and He will respond. And in a way that fits you. As a hands-on material-world Inventor the Response I finally received was a corker; I can assure you readers that miracles are child's play to God, and I am forever humbled and very thankful that he deigned to lay one before me to bring me around. I was an "intellectual", and proud of it. Giving in to a Smarter Power is a big reason for staying an Agnostic, an Atheist. Overweaning pride is a big, and common, obstacle. Lifestyle is another...we don't WANT to live by any objective rules, standards. The bottom line is that God's Deal--fellowship with Him, forever--is our CHOICE. Those who finally decide to really investigate the evidence, honestly accept where it clearly points, and then to ASK for that fellowship WILL receive it. It's quite a deal.

Strobel's book is very accessable. It's reportorial style moves it along quickly. Check it out. And do feel at ease about discussing it right here. I have more to say about it myself, but I need to pack up for a Ramble tomorrow. Will be back in few days. Have fun.

[one-eyed Bob]

Patrick, I have just returned from another surgery trip to Chiapas, where I was surrounded by people with greater faith than mine, and am feeling very tired and humble tonight. Your post is a great explaination of the path to God. I have only been able to conclude that God's laws work, just as gravity does, although we can oppose them for a while if we put enough energy into it. Fortunately He knows more about our needs than we do. Regards, Bob

[Woods Walker]

Free choice is one of those topics I have never been able to intellectually work out. In some places in this world to ask will get a response of death like in Afghanistan etc so does a child in places like that get a fair deal as a kid in the Bible belt? Also GOD being all-powerful and knowing must by definition know all choices and action from lowest bacteria to the highest head of state from even before Creation. It would be a bit like playing cards only GOD knows my hand before the deck was shuffled and if I am bluffing or going to call. So I just don't try to work these things out. Better to just roll with it and do my best. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Patrick]

Woods, some of those issues are addressed in the book. Might help. Probably, in fact. Definitely worth the read. Let us know.

[Patrick]

A heartfelt post, Bob. It sounds like you're doing worthy service for folks who truly need it. God created gravity, so sure, all the rest of those Laws work too.

Looks like I'm going to have to postpone that Ramble...have a prior commitment for tomorrow night. I might just stick around 'til I head up to WY for the Cody Rendezvous later this week, and launch this testing Ramble next week.

[GJZ]

Mr. Bob, hope you have a healthy recovery and feel better soon. Greg

[one-eyed Bob]

Thanks, perhaps we can ramble to Mexico one day.

[GJZ]

one-eyed Bob, I'm not in tune with everyone on the board. Hopefully I miss read your post last night and you were the one performing surgery, that would be good news! Bad news is I'm not feeling very smart at the moment. Unfortunately we don't have to look far to feel humble at times. Sounds like much more than a ramble to Mexico.

[one-eyed Bob]

I was unclear, I suppose. Actually I accumulate, transport, and administer the anesthetics. But recovery is needed after the trip. Your goodwill is appreciated. You can visit ima-missions.org for information and pictures if interested. Regards, Bob.

[GJZ]

Bob, Thats quite a task you perform! IMA-Mission looks like a good organization and if I were to borrow a few words from Patrick (truly a man of words) you must feel proud to participate "doing worthy service for folks who truely need it." When I see an organization focussed on a well intentioned cause I can't help but think about other countries that permit or create more harm than good. I ussually read the Hunting and Firearm forums the most but learned about your "goodwill" on the Creation forum.... I never put much thought into a ramble to Mexico but at this point who knows whats around the next corner? Best of luck with your efforts, Greg

Patrick, I didn't mean to side track your thread...

[BrooklynBen]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Woods Walker:
Free choice is one of those topics I have never been able to intellectually work out.</div></div>Your not alone in your quandaries because when 'predestination', 'omniscence' and 'free will' all mix, it gets confusing.

But it's often all a matter of perspective. Remember, we right now are limited to only being able to think in basically a 3 dimensional world of reference, while the greater reality clearly has more dimensions to it. A very simple example of this is that while we can all understand the concept of an infinite line, at the same time it's also impossible for any of us to actually visualize that reality.

Likewise, it's the Hasidic view that the soul is infinite as well. Like a tree in a forest, it's purpose is established but it's also endowed with the abilities to regenerate. The original tree is never duplicated and it's existence is single, but it's original purpose can move and grow.

Therefore as to the question of the child in Afghanistan, (or some other difficult situation such as a quadriplegic in a wheel chair) we believe that the Creator will often place a soul into a specific situation just so one special accomplishment can be achieved. Whether that is as the leader of a nation or as a little girl in Afghanistan, from the perspective of the Creator it sometimes makes little difference.

I'm sure Mr. Strobel's chapters are better than their titles, because the 8 chapter titles would seem to evidence both a series of immature perspectives as well as intellectually dishonest postulates. (This is great! I can say what I think this time without fear of hurting someones feelings!! /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ) For instance; how does one argue 'good' and 'evil' without already having some basis of an 'absolute'? Acknowledgement to the existence of an absolute clearly indicates some existent belief in something greater than the individual, which is a 'faith' by any other name.

BTW- My sincere compliments to you Patrick. It's a rare person who already has an established faith, but will go back and intellectually re-examine their personal foundations for that faith. Such an exercise speaks volumes as to the character and caliber of such a man. All of which comes as no surprise to those of us who have come to know you even just a little.

edit-typo

[KOOTENAI]

"I'm sure Mr. Strobel's chapters are better than their titles, because the 8 chapter titles would seem to evidence both a series of immature perspectives as well as intellectually dishonest postulates" The pride and arrogance of man still seems to be his downfall after thousnds of years of "enlightenment". You would think that when responding to the owner's post on his own forum a guest would at the very least, refuse to participate rather than call him "immature" in bringing out a book as a good read. When we spend our time "EARNING" our salvation by FOLLOWING LAWS and engaging in pointless "intellectual" discussion, rather than working on the "SIMPLE" things like loving our neighbor and our Creator and remembering that we reap what we sow, we fall into Satans trap. After all, PRIDE is the original sin. It is God's GRACE and His grace alone that "earns" our salvation. Thank you JESUS for HUMBLING yourself and dying for us!

[anthracitic]

Here's a fact for you, BB is a member of this board. You seem to relish any opportunity, however weak, to needle him. Problem is, you come off sounding like you have a lace hanky tucked in your shirtcuff. So, take a dainty pinch of snuff, and stick to your knitting, (whatever that may be), but stop boring us with your plaintive bleating about our boy BB!
You don't make the house rules-

[razorsharp]

I think BB's point is that Strobel is arguing against the immature atheist. If its not his point it is mine. It is pointless to make a moral argument against the existence of God. Without God you have no morals, ultimately.

[BrooklynBen]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by razorsharp:
It is pointless to make a moral argument against the existence of God. </div></div>BINGO! Call it 'half bake' or immature, the bottom line is that the reasoning simply hasn't been carried through to completion.

I've run across a couple of agnostics and atheists who can at least carry on a fairly well reasoned argument, but they are quite careful not to make any moral statements precisely because they also know only too well that to do so is to make an affirmation of the Supreme.

As such, I didn't find any of the chapter titles to be very challenging;

#1) Since Evil and Suffering Exist, a Loving God Cannot.This is like saying that because there is night that takes away the daylight, there is no G-d. Without 'evil' there can't be 'good'! A fellow I know had a fight with his wife one morning that was so 'bad' that he was really late in getting off to work. He was so late that he missed being in his office on the 89th floor of the World Trade Towers when the plane crashed into it. It's all perspective.
#2) Since Miracles Contradict Science, They Cannot Be True.Miracles are a fact of history and every day life. Science holds that any recurring mystery simply identifies another area of science to be discovered. So by using science as a bench-mark against miracles, the writer obviously is not too schooled in the disciplines of science as well! By the way, which 'empirical science' do you think he's referring to, the science of the 1200's or the science of 2000?
#3) Evolution Explains Life, So God Isn't Needed.Evolution is a neat theory and has all sorts of evidence EXCEPT there isn't one single piece of evidence showing evolution progressing between species. So what could this possibly "explain" about life?
#4) God Isn't Worthy of Worship If He Kills Innocent Children.Now it's "HE" who has to somehow be worthy of worship!? (I thought "HE" didn't exist!?) So let me try to understand this; the writer wants children to be indestructible until (?) and since the Creator didn't' design children into the world this way, the writer is going to declare the Creator null and void. (Certainly sounds mature to me!! :rolleyes: )
#5) It's Offensive to Claim Jesus Is the Only Way to God.It's offensive to me when people are offended about Christians declaring their faith! Yeah, so? What does the reality of the Creator have to do about any of this?
#6) A Loving God Would Never Torture People in Hell.An ignorant native from the Amazon is taken to the Mayo Clinic where he is horrified to see a poor man laying on a table while all sorts of people are cutting him and sticking metal tools into him. His perspective has to change in order to realize that the doctors are actually working hard to save the life of the man on table.
#7) Church History Is Littered with Oppression and Violence.The history of atheists and agnostics is littered with more violence and oppression. And this has what to do with the existence of the Creator?
#8) I Still Have Doubts, So I Can't Be a Christian.Four choices here; 1)crawl into a dark hole and hope the world passes by, (2) declare that "it's all just too complicated to ever be understood" and then refuse to let anything make you think about the issue, (3)figure that every single small question regarding the reality of the Creator must be completely answered before you make any decision adopting some belief. (this method might 70 or 80 years, but if you're lucky you might be able to find some faith before your life ends.) OR (4) grow some 'nards', make a sincere decision to search for the answers to the big questions you might have about G-d, and then make an choice in the type of system of faith you would like to pursue. In this way, you can get all sorts of "fast track - on the job training" while I hear the life insurance benefits are great! /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif If you later find a different 'corporation' you would rather work with, no problem!

[Patrick]

BB, razorsharp, precisely. And Strobel makes exactly that point as one of the pointers to the existence of God. As have C.S. Lewis, Dennis Prager, and many other believing thinkers have, I'm sure.

BB, I don't have the book here, but I believe Strobel chose at least some of the Objections in large part as the "popular", "usual", "common" ones raised by most non-believers. As well he should. The fact that the objections aren't really very sophisticated is then brought forward, but gently, respectfully. Without any sense of malice, or triumph at all. Strobel CARES about non-believers, as we all should.

[anthracitic]

*however maddening some of them may find it!

[Patrick]

Ben, it looks as if I was posting about the same time as you, but a tick or two behind. The beginning of my post was refering specifically to the issue of the very existence of any sort of good/evil discussion presupposes their deriving from God. It also looks like the rest of the post speaks to your concern about the derivation of the Objections addressed. Strobel's choices make sense to me. It's not a book solely for Academe. It's meant to be widely read...by a wide audience of folks across the continuum of Belief. Lastly, gently, I suggest you read the book, not just the titles of the chapters. I am suggesting this for everybody reading this discussion.

[Steelworker]

"Strobel CARES about non-believers, as we all should."

Absolutely on the mark, as always! However, it is also something that many of us find hard to do at times; especially when we are being attacked. It's one of the reasons I find solice in the fact that if we were really good, Christ would not have had to die for us. If I ever start to become prideful, I just reread some of my responses to the atheists here to put me back in line.

[Patrick]

Yes to that, anthracitic!

I find myself bumping along with many interuptions in the discussion tonight. Please excuse the timing. Phone calls, that sort of thing. Ben, let me say I dearly love your expositions on the Objections, please keep 'em coming! Us guys can take the issue as far as those academicians I'm sure. And I relish doing exactly that. I dashed in, between interuptions, and cited what I think Strobel's intent was in choosing them; and so let's go from there! And, certainly, you don't really have to read the book to let 'er rip on the topics. Read it if you like, but just know I regret saying that. Chalk it up to being in a hurry, and a bit stressed by that. I suspect we can, will, cover just about everything Strobel does as we kick the topics around right here.

Are we all clear now?

[Patrick]

Hey there Steelworker! Understood on your points. I see you came on while I was addressing anthracitic and Ben. I'm a little mystified by the time gap. I was on the phone with Ed T a looong time in there somewhere. Concluding a gun purchase, and of course talking about gear. You'll understand that I'll bet!

As mere humans we do get riled by malicious attacks and such, yes indeed. Sometimes I have to think that's good for the soul too, frankly. One thing I can say, malicious mockers coming up against this group better bring their lunch! And more wit than they may think at first.

[Woods Walker]

KOOTENAI

My Aunt used to say I was going to hell. Basically she would call me a scum bag with a smile on her face. Turned me off to Christianity for years.


Ben .

I have not read the book but I think Patrick is right on about the author using Humanist remarks in his chapters but not meaning them to be his argument.

Patrick.

I know my Dad must have this book in his collection due to the family “book war”. I tend not to read these books, as I don’t have any real question as to my beliefs but only on the details that no human will ever fully understand. I suspect when I do understand these things I won’t be able to tell anyone. But based on your advice I will look the thing over.

[BrooklynBen]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Woods Walker:
Ben . I have not read the book but I think Patrick is right on about the author using Humanist remarks in his chapters but not meaning them to be his argument.</div></div>Acknowledged and agreed. As we all know, Patrick is no fool, that's why I prefaced my remarks with; "I'm sure Mr. Strobel's chapters are better than their titles..."

I was just hoping that there might be something to actually "chew" on. But if someone on the forum has either a religious or a philosophical challenge they would like to try and work out, I promise to be as gentle and gentile as I can be! /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

[one-eyed Bob]

Patrick, I ordered the book last night. I am unable to convincingly argue these points but I find that as I try to live the life of giving instead of getting (although I still like to get so that I can order Kifaru gear) I understand the love of the Savior better; especially since He simplified the commandments into only two--"love God" and "love your neighbor as yourself". Those non-Christians are not unlovable, and our example can move them deeply in a way that arguments cannot. Regards, Bob

[ISAIAH53]

Lee Strobel's teachings are what turned me from atheism to Christ. I needed the intellectual convincing. He was one of the teaching pastors in our church for a number of years, and he baptized my wife and me about 8 years ago. His books, "The Case for Christ," "The Case for Faith," and "The Case for a Creator" are all outstanding reads, and his in-person teaching is even more compelling. His first book, "The Case for Christ" was the result of a three year quest to disprove that Christ is the Son of God.

[Roger Beach]

I too have had trouble understanding free will. Our pastor has written on it and I found it helpful...but must admit, I am still a little foggy on it.

You can check out his article at: http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue92.htm

The website is Critical Issues Commentary. There are 90+ articles on the sight.

Roger

[William Clunie]

There shall come a time when we all know the answers to these seemingly unanswerable questions -- when the pearly gates are opened and the warm light hits our face. And then we shall laugh with an eternal joy, knowing how silly it was to worry and struggle so hard to find the answers. Aren't we humans some funny folks? I'm looking forward to that day, and praying for our own peace of mind here on earth until then.
God Bless you all,
William Clunie

[Ralph]

Awhile back I was listening to a discussion about why today's Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. One man shrugged and said, "He didn't bring peace."

It struck me that this comment has the advantage of both truth and simplicity. It also overlooks the fact that apparently God doesn't work that way.

God gives us what we need (not necessrily what we want) but what we do with what we need is entirely up to us. This is the essence of free will. God could surely smite the wicked and compel us to live in peace but in doing so, remove free will from the earth.

What is so important about free will? I think it's pretty much the same answer as the question if we have a soul that exists independent of the body, why have life as a corporeal form at all?

I don't know, but it seems that life, with free will to act as we wish, is important in the overall scheme of things in the universe.

We have what we need to have peace here. We have, some of us anyhow, intelligence, compassion, and all the other features and characteristics to live without killing each other - and most of us do.

Unfortunately there always seem to be a few troublemakers around. people who want power, people who prefer to steal and enslave and rape and murder, people who can't imagine living peacefully with others who may disagree about matters of faith.

I think perhaps the characteristics that allow most of us to live peacefully with our neighbors actually work against us when dealing with these few troublemakers.

[oktec60]

"What is so important about free will?"

Without it, you can't fulfill G-d’s purpose for your creation which He began in Genesis 1:27.

Mike