Amazing Discussion [Archive]

T&S Manufacturing

07-26-2006, 03:46 PM

Ralph;

It's about a 3-5 min video. The woman appears to be between in her mid/late 40's..possibly early 50's. She's debating two hard line muslim men. She calls them to task by questioning - very firmly - their "holy war". She berates them for the hard line Muslim claim that Allah demands 'infidels' be killed. She berates them for calling non-muslims "apes, pigs" and "people of the book" (meaning people the koran supposedly orders good muslims to murder). She berates them for saying their religion "orders you to not offend any person", while in the meantime they're killing non-muslims. She berates them for hating/killing Christions, Jews, and all other non-muslims.

Some of her words paraphrased:

"Out of the holocaust the Jews came...15 million people scattered throughout the world...who by organizing secured their nation again...Not a single Jew has bombed a German cafe...most of the great scientific discoveries of the 19th and 20th centuries came from Jewish scientists"

"Not a single buddhist has burned a mosque...but muslims have bombed three budha statues"\

Direct quotes:
"This is not a clash of cultures...this is not a clash of religions...this is about the civilized and the barbaric...this is about those who respect women and those who treat them like slaves...this is a clash between a mentality that belongs in the middle ages and a mentality of the 21st century...

(cont)....the muslims are the ones who began this clash...'the prohpet of Islam said: I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in allah and his message'....when the muslims divided the people into muslims and non-muslims...and called to fight the others until they believe what they themselves believed...then they started this clash and began this war...in order to stop this war they must re-examine their islamic books and curricula...which are full of calls for fighting the infidels..."

Pocket Lint

07-26-2006, 04:18 PM

"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato

Neither side is right, nor wrong. Both sides are right and wrong in themselves.

She says only muslims bomb churches, religious statues etc ... She could be correct for one event in particular, but who is she to say that ONLY muslims do that? Christians, Jews, Muslims alike wreak havok all the same. Who's not to say that Bush gave the "go ahead" to kill innocent lives, human beings? What do you think is happening is Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebenon? Christians destroy Mosques, and religious structures frequently. Look at Isreal bombing Lebenon to bits, and with the Western world behind them, we're just as bad as any other human beings on the planet. We cause just as much destruction and havok all over the world, whether domestically, or foreign. Every civilization, every country wages war, causes violence, this is not something exclusive to a religion, or race, or culture, this is a worlwide, human causality, it is ubiquitous.

anthracitic

07-26-2006, 04:52 PM

That has to be the most ignorant post that has appeared on this board in many a moon-
Since you obviously haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about, kindly have the decency not to subject the rest of us to your idiotic (sic) reasoning.
I now know how old you are...

Ralph

07-26-2006, 05:01 PM

You present a poor example of critical thinking. Do you proclaim that Israel just arbitarily decided to bomb Lebanon? For some religious purpose, perhaps? Or did Israel respond to rocket attacks initiated by others?

I'm here to say that Bush did not give the "go-ahead to take innocent lives. Unfortunately, sometimes the innocent get caught in the mesh of war. This isn't deliberate, it is an accident. When our troops take fire from a mosque, that mosque becomes a target, not because our policy is to attack mosques, but because the people in the mosque chose to use their place of worship as a fortress and intitiated an attack from that structure.

You can believe whatever you wish, no matter how foolish, but if you truly believe that the problems of the world are intiated and instigated by this nation you are just plain wrong and are choosing to play out a view without regard to fact.

P.S. If you reply to this, please cite examples that happened recently, not stuff that happened centuries ago.

Woods Walker

07-26-2006, 06:26 PM

Bro. anthracitic

"kindly have the decency not to subject the rest of us to your idiotic (sic) reasoning"

Please don't be like that. I want to hear more.
:rolleyes:

Pocket Lint

We are not perfect but do you have ANY clue what these animals would do to you if they could. They would kick you to the ground and hack off your head with a dull sword. Don’t believe me? Get your sh@t together. I am normally not this harsh but grow up. You are like a little kid. This is not about Islam and Christianity. This is a fight to the death against those that want to bring back the Middle Ages. They want to force their twisted world view and will murder ANYONE women children or YOU to get their way. Snap out of it. What would you have done in 1941? These terrorist are just like the Skinheads and Nazis. Cast from the same broken mold. Crap I can't believe I even have to explain this to someone past 8 years old. I don't think you are a bad guy but just very wrong on this issue.

Ralph

07-27-2006, 04:45 AM

Like a lot of older folks, I sometimes wonder if we still have it within us to fight the good fight, to perservere and sacrifice as our older generations did when it was necessary.

Then I consider the younger guys I know and see the courage, devotion to duty, fortitude and compassion of our troops and think that well- we are doing okay. Things could be better, but overall, I think the views expressed by Pocket Lint are those of the historically ignorant and do not, by any means, represent anything even close to a majority.

The VA arranged for a ride back home for me. I was the only one in the van. We passed an armory I had been assigned to for several years and I commented that it had been sold off which I didn't think was that wise. He asked about my duty assignments and we began chatting about Iraq, and emergency preparedness and related stuff. The driver had been a professional driver his whole working life. No stellar academic credentials, sort of a tattooed biker image, maybe mid-30s but, I have to say, he had a clearer view of what we are doing in the world and what is required for emergencies than 90% of anyone you are likely to see interviewed on the subject including most of the senior staff of FEMA.

That rough exterior covered a quiet, thoughtful man who, I think, more closely represented the average American than any number of loud-mouthed fools showing up on the news.

William Clunie

07-27-2006, 05:08 AM

Mr Pocket lint,
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato

I think the question you need to consider is, "Who's side do you want to be on." Then take appropriate action. Or are you one of these "whirled peas" kind of guys . . . don't support either side, just stick your head in the sand and let the rest of the world take care of its problems. The reality of it is, peace keepers sometimes have to kill those that don't want peace in the world. Even if they hide in mosques, sheltering themselves behind women and children.
People that think they are being "diverse" or "open" by not taking a stand just pi@@ me off.
God Bless America

Woods Walker

07-27-2006, 07:26 AM

William.

What these people don't seem to understand is the nature of what we are all up against. I am not speaking about every Muslim etc. But for these radicals there are only three types of people.

1. Those that have accepted the Prophet Muhammad and their own interpretation of Islam

2. Those that have been killed for not doing so.

3. Those that are going to be killed.

People that do not understand this are nothing more than cattle being sent to the slaughter house. The simple fact is that if we do not stop these radical killers they will follow us home and kill everyone that does not bend to their will. If you think about it they don't really have a choice in the matter. They have to do it. Yea some will say what harm they can really do. Just a few radicals that’s all. That kind of crap was said in the 30's about the Nazis. Just a few brown shirts. No real harm in that. But in a world of fools these killer have an edge. They have no pocket lint thinking. They are very clear and focused and willing to die for their cause. Seems lots of people these days have gotten so soft they cry like a baby because the local Star Bucks is out of White chocolate mocha. Don't laugh I was in Starbucks and some little bitch of a man was chewing out the girls behind the counter over this issue. He didn't like to hear what I had to say about him. I hate to say this but one focused terrorist vs. 10 soft clowns like that? Our nation is just full of these types living off the heroic self sacrifice of those that came before and those that are fighting today. What do they do to reward our past and present HEROS? They talk defeatism. We are so screwed if this foolishness grows!

Therefore William I submit that there are no "sides” in this conflict. This is a fight of total annihilation.

Steelworker

07-27-2006, 07:56 AM

Pocket Lint -- Spoken like a true Gnostic. You have a firm grasp of nothing historically. I suppose even ignorant folks have a right to speak, but most of us keep our mouths shut and listen when we are around folks who are better informed than we are on a given subject. It doesn't reveal our ignorance, and by listening instead of speaking, we are able to begin to cure our ignorance so that at some distant point we may be able to contribute something of VALUE. IF we do say anything at all, it's to ask a question for clarification, enhance our understanding, etc. You might try this approach.

As for bombing mosques, when the enemy uses them for ammo caches or to hide in, they become targets. A serious practitioner of war, William Tecumseh Sherman believed "War is hell", yet at the same time, acted in accordance with the ideas laid down by James Kent, who wrote "Commentaries on American Law". "Kent wrote that war dissolved all morality and was fought between all the people of one nation versus all the people of the other. As for the civil war, Kent argued that, "the central government had to defend the laws of union by force of arms or be disgraced." (Marszalek, John E., "Sherman, A Soldier's Passion for Order", Vintage Civil War Library, New York, 1993, pp. 20-21) Sherman therefore fought total war, and that is what many of us were taught at one time -- destroy the enemy and his means to resist. Keep this line of thought for a moment and look at what is happening in the world today in regards to Islam. First off, Israel has a right as a sovereign nation to defend it's people and if that means destroying mosques being used to wage war, then so be it. The enemy knew the mosques would provide them with good press release should they be attacked, so their intent was nefarious all along. Do you honestly believe we should have just sat around on the ground and sang Kumbaya after 9/11 and everything would have been better? Should we have all agreed we deserved it and asked for more, like the flagellates of the 14th century? Bush did what was morally and ethically correct, whether or not you have the stomach for such things. Israel is also doing the correct thing by attacking terrorists who shoot missiles into its cities and kill and kidnap it's soldiers. Hezbollah was actually shocked that Israel would attack them -- they thought it was perfectly okay to attack Israel whenever they got the urge and believe firmly Israel is overreacting (something you must obviously be in agreement -- which speaks volumes about you). Personally, it sickens me to think we have among us people of your ilk who believe that if Mexico began shooting rockets at random into Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California, killed or kidnapped our Border Patrol or National Guard troops at random and conducted other ACTS of WAR, that we should just sit by and let it happen, since we are, by your twisted logic, all guilty anyway. The theory that "nothing is worth fighting or dying for" is most appropriate for atheists and cowards. The atheist, since he thinks there is nothing but this world, and the coward, who thinks only of his own skin. I did some very classified work long ago for our country and was very involved with folks like you. I found after a short time they were some of the most violent people I had ever met. Quite nasty actually. Outwardly they all talked peace, while at the same time working feverishing to aid and abet the enemy. You obviously are of this group or their progeny.

T&S Manufacturing

07-27-2006, 03:18 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Pocket Lint:
" We cause just as much destruction and havok all over the world, whether domestically, or foreign. </div></div>A severe overstatement, obviously made out of ignorance, or bias, or both. It's doubtful there's a better place in the world to live than the USA. Anyone who believes the USA is on the same level as the nazi germany, imperalist japan, fascist italy, communist russia, and any of the hundreds of 3rd world dictatorships surely has never lived anyplace else but the USA. They really should leave the USA and live someplace else for awhile.

China maybe? No, probably not. Wouldn't be able to google "democracy" from the local internet cafe there. Certainly wouldn't be able to criticize the govt on the internet there, either. Not without a good chance of being arrested and tossed in jail until you "see the error of your ways".

France? Nope. France's liberal immigration laws have turned the country into a breeding ground for radical muslims bent on planning the destruction of everyone not muslim. Same for Germany. Spain too.

Where else? South America? No. Too much violence from the 'caine wars. Not really a republic there anyway. No real middle class. Just the haves and have nots.

'Course, if you're someone like Johnny Depp or any other rich hollywoodster living behind rosy glasses and sitting on a multimillion dollar income, you can live anywhere in the world and call it "good". But it's still not the USA.

Kevin

07-27-2006, 06:51 PM

There is a cartoon depicting the difference between the Islamic and Israeli "soldiers." ( Q marks for the Hezbollah combatants.)

It depict a man from Hezbolla on his knee with a machine gun, and a baby carriage in front of him. The Israeli has the same equipment but stands with the baby carriage behind him.

There is no moral equivalency in this war and those who believe that there is are contemptible fools.

Your moderator is NOT neutral on this issue. I have friends who were in the WTC on 9-11-01, and have friend in Iraq right now, as well as a son who is returning to Navy duty.

Patrick

07-27-2006, 08:07 PM

That cartoon is quite apt, Kevin. Islamic Jihadists are the vilest monsters ever to draw breath in the history of earth. Your site owner is not neutral on this issue either. The moral equivalency Leftists are downright dangerous. They are "enablers" of heinous atrocity on a scale never before seen. They, too, are the enemy.

John Havard

07-28-2006, 05:08 AM

I've suggested on another thread that folks should read the book "Onward Muslim Soldiers" by Robert Spencer. It very thoroughly covers the teachings of Islam vis-a-vis jihad, and does so from a purely scholarly perspective.

We are in a war for survival - freedom and democracy versus a hateful and backward theocratic rule stuck in the middle ages.

Islam is not a religion that believes in tolerance and inclusion. Make no mistake - the entire civilized world is at war with Islam whether all of us realize it or not.

Kevin

07-28-2006, 06:27 AM

Spencer also has a website.

<a href="http://www.jihadwatch.org" target="_blank">http://www.jihadwatch.org (http://www.jihadwatch.org)</a>

Ralph

07-28-2006, 07:07 AM

I think very few on this board are neutral on this matter.

People of the civilized world sleep peacefully because rough men stand ready in the night to protect them from those who would do them harm. The protected, those who have never served, have no idea the effort and deprivation exerted in the past, and as we speak today, in order to keep them from harm.

Those who know me probably don't think of "rough man" as an apt description, but the fact is that I, and virtually all soldiers I ever knew, are just as rough as we need to be, and no more. That's another thing separating us from our adversaries. Mr. Lint and his ilk will never understand this.

Woods Walker

07-28-2006, 08:27 AM

John.

“Islam is not a religion that believes in tolerance and inclusion. Make no mistake - the entire civilized world is at war with Islam whether all of us realize it or not.”

I have some good friends that believe in Islam. They don't seem to want me dead being a Christian and these people seem to be just as horrified by the radicals as I am. They tell me their religion is being "Hijacked". Not going to enter another debate about all Muslims being evil or about Islam etc. I am Christian and this works for me. I am just telling you my experience with a few people of Islamic faith.

The terrorist tell the over a billion people believing in Islam that this is a war against their religion. You are reinforcing that propaganda. I give these evil animals NOTHING to help them. Think about it.

This war is a classic conflict between good and evil. Sooner or later the cards had to hit the table I guess. What that women in the video said is so right.

This is from a secular humanist.

We respect others right to follow any religion they want.
This is a war of civilization vs. barbarism.
Between Democracy and dictatorship.

So you are saying this is a war against a whole religion? What about the hundreds of millions of Muslims that are doing nothing wrong. Are they going to be respected in this war as now it is against the whole of the Islamic religion? We are better than them (radicals) and better in my view than the secular humanist. I will not lower myself to the level of either group. However I will respect the rights of people that are Islamic or Secular humanist and will protect those rights and speak against anyone that does not.. I will not respect the right of terrorist or radical Muslims as they are nothing more than tools of a greater evil. This lack of respect only goes towards their defeat. I will not lower my self to use their methods. This has always put good at a disadvantage when fighting evil. We don’t beat or murder POWs as a policy but sometimes incidences happen. We don’t kill innocent civilians but sometimes it can happen. Our accidents are their policies. This is something the moral equivalency fools do not understand. Maybe because for some of them there is no good or evil just shades of gray.

Patrick.

“They, too, are the enemy”

In some ways they are worse. The evil terrorist at least has a belief system. Be it evil they still believe in something. Traditionally in war traders have been viewed as worse than the enemy. For good reason

John Havard

07-28-2006, 08:55 AM

Woods Walker, I invite you to read the book I mentioned and question for yourself whether the tolerant Muslims you know/have known are representative of what the Quran teaches or if indeed murderers like Osama bin Laden actually represent the teachings of the prophet. If you read the book with an open mind I believe that you will be forced to accept the sad truth that tolerance IS NOT part of Islam. If you find any weakness in Spencer's analysis I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

I truly believe that the religion of Islam must be defeated because their religion calls for the subjugation or conversion or death of all non-believers. Muslims who do not believe that are not "true believers" according to scholars who have spent their entire lives studying the Quran.

Woods Walker

07-28-2006, 10:05 AM

I have read the Qu'an but lack the cultural understanding to full grasp the thing. In fact I don't really have a total grasp of my own Bible. But I don't care to get into a debate on religions etc. But WHAT is up with this:

"Muslims who do not believe that are not "true believers" according to scholars who have spent their entire lives studying the Quran"

So you have taken it upon your self to determine what other Moderate Muslims should believe? How they are to follow their own religion. What parts they believe in or what parts they reject? If they are true believers in their own religion or not. You know for them don’t you? That "according to scholars" thing is a joke as you know NOTHING of these people only those scholars you are taking about.

Sorry but that is the most stupid line of BS I have heard in a long time. Good luck on your holly war. I want nothing to do with it. I am not going to read any book from this Spencer if it uses this line of thinking as I have NOTHING to learn from it. Christians are better than this. My country is better than this. You are better than this too.

I can’t stand the Radicals but will respect anyone’s right to follow any religion they want even if I may not like it and in this case I like my religion better. I wish they all became Christians as I worry and want them to be saved etc. But in NO way would want to use force. I don’t believe what you THINK happens inside peoples minds needs to be or should be “defeated”. That is totalitarianism, Barbarism, Dictators ship and all that is evil.

We are on the same side on most of these issues. I support the war in Iraq and what Israel is doing. But want nothing to do with intolerance. It’s just against my religion, culture and nation.

I am against the radical Muslims that what to kill us and force their twisted view on those that survive. But I have nothing against anyone that believes in any religion they want. If they live in peace then what they think is their business. I will not determine for them what they believe or think. I will not force my views on them. I have nothing more to say on this issue.

Now those talking moral equivalency and defeatism in the war against terror. I could go on all day. These people are like a 3rd Column in my view. But even their right to be totally stupid should be protected. Still they piss me off. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

John Havard

07-28-2006, 01:12 PM

I haven't taken it upon myself to determine what moderate Muslims (whatever that is) want to believe. They can believe anything they want. That still doesn't change the fact that the Quran teaches intolerance. If some Muslims choose to not follow the intolerant passages as clearly outlined by Mr. Spencer then it simply means they choose to not follow that part of the Quran. Unfortunately Muslims like Osama bin Laden and another billion or more do choose to follow their "bible" literally.

For the record, Spencer doesn't have a horse in the race when it comes to this debate. He's not some loony who wants to incite hatred. He's simply a life-long scholar of the Quran who chose to systematically explore and report on this subject in the aforementioned book.

My opinion is this: if the Quran tells Muslims to kill my children then as far as I'm concerned we are in a war against the religion. We can all be PC and disregard the fact that the holy book of Islam that's supposed to guide the behavior of all Muslims calls for jihad (i.e. killing my children) or we can call a spade a spade. I prefer the latter course.

I sincerely wish that the billion or so radical Muslims would suddenly choose to disregard the later Medina writings of Muhammad so we could all start getting along, but I don't think it will happen.

Woods Walker

07-28-2006, 01:15 PM

"Muslims like Osama bin Laden and another billion or more do choose to follow their "bible" literally."

Ok so there are about a billion of them and they all do this. What do we have left. 16 or 19? Maybe 10 or could be 6 that are moderate and don't believe as Bin Laden does. After all I don't think there is more than a billion or so in the whole world. Why even pretend there are 16 non terrorist amoung them. We clearly need to a holly war to save the world against the billions (all) of them.

"They can believe anything they want"
Is that before or after your Holly War as you think they are ALL terrorist. That is what you said and you KNOW IT!

A "billion or so radical Muslims" eeekkkkkkkk. That does not leave alot of moderates? We will have to a agree to disagree on this topic. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

EDIT.

So 700 million can live and we need not have war against them? The rest (the billion) are ALL terrorists. I get it now. Thanks. :rolleyes: Wow! How did you work that billion number out? What is the cut off between within the 1 billion and the remaining 700 million? Do you have a source and other little things known as FACTS or is that not needed to come up with these numbers? I think you are a good guy John but this thinking is so far outside what I believe as a Christian and an American that there must be some kinda miss communication. A BILLION radical killers? Hummmmm. Those that are terrorist need to be crushed so we agree on that. The rest of what you said is just not for me. Sorry.

John Havard

07-28-2006, 01:33 PM

I agree that we'll have to agree to disagree. One estimate I recently heard said there were approximately 1.7 billion muslims in the world.

EDIT

We may only want to kill the billion (or is it "only" a few hundred million?) radical Muslims who are trying to kill us. I'd feel so much better if it was only a few hundred million, wouldn't you? You are welcome to be altruistic with your life and the lives of your children. But you are not welcome to do so with the lives of mine. If you want to believe that good springs in the hearts of most Muslims and that most Muslims don't want to kill your (or my) children then feel free. But as I said earlier, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.

I think that most Muslims will follow the teachings of their holy book just as you follow yours. Unfortunately for you and me and all non-believers their holy book says they are supposed to subjugate us or convert us or kill us if the first two options fail. Good does not always triumph over evil without armed intervention.

one-eyed Bob

07-28-2006, 03:22 PM

I suspect that there are many Muslims who will never read their holy book. They just find themselves in a certain place and time and want to be left alone to raise their families. In this regard they are like much of the world and are not a threat to us. Let's not give them any negative personal examples unless it becomes necessary for our safety.

Woods Walker

07-28-2006, 04:09 PM

Bob.

That is the page I am on. I think lots of Muslims have also rejected the questionable stuff that I have read in the Qu'an or Koran as I say it. Just people looking to make a living. But those crazy evil killer types we need to burn them out of the holes they crawl into.

edit.

I just wish that those not into terror within the Islamic faith would stand up and do something more to stop this. If not it will become worse. Sad to think about but as I said Good vs. Evil and it was only a matter of time before the cards had to hit the table.

Ralph

07-28-2006, 06:13 PM

"I just wish that those not into terror within the Islamic faith would stand up and do something more to stop this."

that's the weakness in the whole "most are so moderate" argument.

I'm an Episcopalian, non-practicing at the moment, but can guarantee you that if a bunch of fanatic Episcopalians were to start killing willy-nilly (however unlikely that might be) I would be among the first to deny they represent the church and to take up arms against them.

Except for Wafa Sultan, where are the moderates?

Soldiers don't get to choose the wars they fight, and to some extent, the civilized nations don't either. Wars are forced upon us, and if we learn anything from history it is that delaying an inevitable war can be the path to disaster.

Woods Walker

07-28-2006, 07:46 PM

Ralph.

"that's the weakness in the whole "most are so moderate" argument."

I have to respectably disagree. It is an unfortunate reality that good people often do nothing to stop evil. That is why there is a saying that goes something like this. "All evil needs if for good people to do nothing". In Germany most people did not stop the NAZIS scum for the same reasons that people have always allowed for evil to grow. Fear of getting killed for standing up. Easier to just go with the flow. The hope the someone else will do something. The reasons go on and on. As a result everyone that did not do something will in the end have to pay for it just like the German people did and just like the Islamic nations too. But we don't say things like "Because the majority of Germans did not stop the NAZIS they are all evil. No we fought against the NAZIS but not the German people. We then don't turn around and say because the majority of Islamic people don't stop the terrorist they are all terrorist. We are better than the NAZIS and terrorists. We are GOOD and it is them that are EVIL. There is not weakness in my argument. What others here has called PC thinking I call the difference between GOOD and EVIL. Others like the rather foolish Pocket lint types are beyond any explanation. To inject moral equivalency into the life or death struggle against EVIL is beyond my understanding. I will give him the best and kindest reason I can think of and just call Mr. Lint stupid. I know that may violate the TOS of this board but I stand by my assessment of that type of thinking.

John.

"Unfortunately for you and me and all non-believers their holy book says they are supposed to subjugate us or convert us or kill us if the first two options fail."

If any one acting on that tried to kill you or your family I would be there with my AR-15 right by your side. Trust me on this. But this is not the same as killing someone for their beliefs rather than their actions. That is what we are fighting against.Somehow I feel that I am miss understanding what you are saying. Are you saying we should go to war with people that may or do hate us (aka their beliefs) rather than go to war with people that try to hurt us (aka their actions)?

"I'd feel so much better if it was only a few hundred million"

One is far too much for me.

"Good does not always triumph over evil without armed intervention."

I agree.

"You are welcome to be altruistic with your life and the lives of your children. But you are not welcome to do so with the lives of mine"

What? So NOW my beliefs are a risk to your family. Your children too. LOL....Yea right....This is still the USA or did I wake up in Iran. Nice WOW John! I don't even have the words to respond something like that. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

Pocket Lint

07-28-2006, 09:23 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Woods Walker:

I will give him the best and kindest reason I can think of and just call Mr. Lint stupid. I know that may violate the TOS of this board but I stand by my assessment of that type of thinking.
</div></div>Well, interesting to see how people are so quick to jump on these boards. I didn't think people would take what I typed so seriously. Why do you have to insult me, and call me names?

Woods Walker

07-28-2006, 09:28 PM

"Why do you have to insult me, and call me names?"

Because that you posted was total stupid and I called you the kindest names I could given what you said. No insult just the facts.

Woods Walker

07-28-2006, 09:32 PM

"I didn't think people would take what I typed so seriously"

Sorry but these people are blowing themselves up in the name of GOD. What do you think the HEROs fighting evil in Iraq feel about you saying they have moral equivalency with people cutting off heads? Tell me? They read this MB or didn't you know that. How old are you? Maybe you don't understand and we are being too harsh. Are you 15? Only a child would not underdstand why people would take what you wrote so seriously. These animals will cut off your head and murder your family if they could. Come on...Pull your sh@T together. This is not a game or a joke. These people are looking to murder everyone that does not follow their sick twisted belief system. Crap I almost feel bad telling you this. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

I may disagree with some on this MB about the details of this fight. But this goes far beyond the debate I am having with John or Ralph as we know there is no moral equivalency between these killers and our military. Just read what everyone had to say. It may have looked like insults but what they are doing is giving you a harsh lesson in reality for your own good. That is what I am doing too. This is a chance to improve yourself. Take it.

anthracitic

07-28-2006, 10:07 PM

P-L, class is in session.
Be advised, you will be judged by what you write here.
We take this war on terrorism in a deadly serious manner.
Men on this board are fighting terrorism.
Men on this board have served with distinction. Men on this board offer their children in this fight.
Men on this board train our future warriors.
I say again, we take this fight in a deadly serious manner.
So if you waltz in here, greener than a red blackberry, spouting bliss ninny platitudes about how nobody is right, well sir, brace for impact.
You have a good deal yet to learn-

Woods Walker

07-28-2006, 10:25 PM

Al Qaeda leader "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi", killed by US Forces in Iraq, has just met with the first of his 72 virgins that Allah promised.

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/ShowLetter.083.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

William Clunie

07-29-2006, 03:15 AM

Woods Walker,
A fitting "ever-after" for a murderer, eh? Looks like a bad case of crack overdose.
:>)

Ralph

07-29-2006, 05:30 AM

Pocket Lint: Anthracitic says it quite well.

This message board is quite likely the finest of its type on the Internet, populated by some of the finest gentlemen and ladies it has ever been my privilege to know. And I do know them. Every single person I have met personally is exactly as they seem to be here - there are no fantasy personas.

Many people regard these boards as amusements, and they are. This board is much more, however. Most of the participants are mature, highly skilled and experienced in every aspect of the outdoors, from casual hiking to military life, to backpack hunting. Moreover, they are willing and eager to share experience and help out others.

In addition to our mutual interest in the skills, equipment and clothing for the outdoors and our love for the great wild spaces of the earth we also discuss matters of great significance and import in the manner of long-term friends sitting around the campfire, sharing viewpoints, observations and experiences on matters as diverse as intelligent design vs. evolution, energy resources, the nature of God, and, of course, the current war.

For the most part, these discussions are gentlemanly and reflect great mutual respect since opinions represnt a great variety of views and experience.

You are free to hold any view you wish and to express your view. However, don't be surprised if someone challenges you when you stray off the path of reasonableness as you did with your morsl equivalency argument.

I realize your view is reflective of many on the college campuses and, frankly, it makes no more sense there than it does here. The difference is that here you will be challenged to support that view, there you won't be - more's the pity.

(Many, maybe most of us have college degrees and I think that many here are as dismayed as I am at how little independent thought actually exists on the campus today. Outrageous views aren't independent, they just make you sound foolish and ignorant - Ward Churchill is an excellent example.)

So yes, we take what you say seriously whether your comment is your choice of socks or the nature of war. To do otherwise would be demeaning and we don't demean folks here.

Don't slink off, hang around for awhile - you may just learn something.

Kevin

07-29-2006, 05:43 AM

I liken the presence of radical Muslims to the Nazis of Germany. Not every German was a Nazi, but enough were that we had to go to war with Germany, and we did so without figuring out how many Germans were of what persuasion.

I have read that the jihad fringe is only about 300,000 with 20,000 sympathizers. I don't know how to confirm this, and I don't care. Thet's enough that they cannot be ignored, especially when you put petrobillions behind it.

Remmy

07-29-2006, 04:18 PM

Wow, you people are suckers for the media aren't you? Pocket Lint was right on. If you want an intelligent debate on the subject, try here:

http://www.lunabean.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8741

The topic has come up many times here and has been discussed by all sides, not just one. Perhaps a friendly interboard discussion?

-Remmy

anthracitic

07-29-2006, 04:28 PM

Go play a video game, and let the adults deal with the serious issues.
Let me guess, 20-something liberal nitwit, right?

Steelworker

07-29-2006, 04:33 PM

Anthracitic -- /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif LOL!!!

Ralph

07-29-2006, 06:26 PM

I think I'll pass on the Lunapass, that crowd would drive me nuts in about a day.

BrooklynBen

07-29-2006, 07:16 PM

Well said guys, and thanks for saying it!

It's surely a shame that just because a kid can go to the bathroom by himself and somebody has taken the time to teach him how to type, he suddenly thinks his inexperienced and totally ignorant opinion is suddenly equal with all others, let alone the men of this forum. What a pile of modern "screwled" crap.

Maybe some day when we can share a cold one, I'll give you the "Paul Harvey's 'rest of the story'". /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Do you drink beer WW?

Woods Walker

07-29-2006, 08:14 PM

Remmy

"Don't forget that they are bible freaks. They talk about radical muslims, but isn't it also hypocritical they themselves are probably Christian radicals who want every single muslim eradicated?"

How is it that they all seemed to forget my views saying the total opposite? How is it that they forgot Kevin’s views or Bob’s? Just over looked that part didn’t they and said what they WANTED to hear. I gave Mr. Lint a chance to be a Man and he reverted into a lying little boy. I have gone to great lengths explaining intolerance in EVIL and will school those that talk such foolishness. Christian radicals. Yea I am a Christian but ask anyone if I am a radical anything. In fact I could give a crap if you follow any religion as I would never force it on anyone. Ben is a Jew I don't give two sh@ts because he is a good guy and that is all that matters. You don’t know that do you? What are these all sides you talk of? The side that cuts of the heads of people and films it. Or are you talking about the side that blows themselves up in a market full of women and children? Remmy how old are you because Heck I just turned 37 and don’t ever remember being that immature? Remmy do you have any clue what these radical terrorist would do you and your family. They would murder your mother because she may expose her ankles. They would cut off your head not before packing your eyes with salt because you don’t follow their religious view. They would take any young family members and reeducated them into their own perverse beliefs. You still think they are any sides? Any room to debate? Any moral equivalency? Are you kidding me?

“The topic has come up many times here and has been discussed by all sides, not just one. Perhaps a friendly interboard discussion?”

What is "the topic" you are talking about and what are these so called "sides"? Do you even know? I have got to hear this. :rolleyes:

Edit. But I do like the GLA in C&C Generals. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif But most of all I miss Brotherhood of Nod.

Ben..

Yea and this winter You and T&S may get a chance to camp out in my back yard.

Kevin

07-30-2006, 05:21 AM

I'll bet this is the first time Brooklyn Ben has been called a Christian radical. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Ralph

07-30-2006, 06:55 AM

First time for me, too.

These guys don't get it and they won't until the message is delivered at knife point. They are sheep with contempt for the sheep dogs who keep them safe. I have no doubt they see soldiers as guys who are too dumb to get a real job.

I've said before and will say again, in the hope that maybe one of these guys might actually understand what I am saying:

my wish for all people, everywhere, is to live in peace, prosperity, health and happiness their entire long lives. To participate in their government as they are able to do so, to practice whatever faith they choose, to raise children who are happy and healthy and smart.

I doubt it is a reach or an overstatement to believe these sentiments are shared by virtually every member of this board.

That's what us gun-toting, ignorant, Christian radical rednecks want, folks.

Woods Walker

07-30-2006, 07:12 AM

The problem is that these children are playing too much Medal of Honor video games. They may think that the Germans or Japanese is just another side. A mouse click option like games resolution. I say this based on the stupidity I have read so far nothing more as I don't know all of them. Well Medal of Honor is a great game but they don’t go into the death camps. You will never see any sunflowers hiding the showers. These games don’t show the death trains because everyone is the same. Just sides, nothing more than mouse clicks.

Caligula

07-30-2006, 07:44 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> .......I doubt it is a reach or an overstatement to believe these sentiments are shared by virtually every member of this board.
</div></div>Hi ,
I find it difficult to appreciate that I am posting in this section.
I agree with what most have posted here........but from a different direction.
I speak relatively often with many Islamic 'moderates' who support the 'Muslim Side' much as anyone supports a football team.

I also speak with many committed Christians who mouth platitudes and live any way that turns them on. I must add that I was brought up Christian and have elected to take what ethics I can maintain from that upbringing.

I find the common theme to be ...stupidity. Even those confronted with the bits of smelly meat that once were people still maintain the rage on the basis of the ramblings of 1,000 or 2,000 years ago ill-educated goat-herders !!!!

I see no reasoning applying to the most rabid of fundamentalists - as I see it equally inapplicable to the great unwashed of the 'moderate' hordes.

Might I take a step sideways ? On 911 I watched a cataclysm. Although I was around the other side of the world - I could smell the smoke and taste the dust. I am not American.
I watched the rest of the world tremble.
It was almost expected that areas of the Middle East would soon be covered in a cooling sea of glass.
Instead , a relatively 'quick' response saw some invasions - a relatively 'moderate' answer.
I see it as America responding with the ethics it still sees as representing the core or the ideal of belief in a system - maybe not so much a political ideal , but certainly a 'Societal' and definitely a Cultural ideal.
I can identify with and from that in my Country.

A step back........people can come onto these Forums and say the most untoward things....they may be minimalised or 'dissed'.......... but they can still do it ....in other Countries , they are beheaded , burned or stoned.

Should you come into my house and kill and brutalise - I will stop you if I can....and then I will go to your house and destroy it and all who dwell there so it cannot happen again - and I care not about my neighbours' concerns for fairness , charity , political correctness or religious beliefs.
Why should Israel be any different ?
Why should America , for that matter ?

Many in my Country believe and feel that way - many don't. But they have that right.

Regards ..................Caligula

BrooklynBen

07-30-2006, 08:03 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Kevin:
I'll bet this is the first time Brooklyn Ben has been called a Christian radical. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>I hadn't wasted my time to climb into their playpen, but then as WW copied it and you mentioned it, I was sort of honored! I've never before been considered to be on that side of the fence before! /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif I sort of took it as a form of backward evidence that I might actually be a well rounded guy after all! /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Then I immediately had to laugh when I remembered the source, making it a joke like everything else they've pontificated upon.

/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif You know, for some reason, for a brief moment there, I had this strange sudden urge to attend a Sunday Brunch?! /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Ralph

07-30-2006, 12:57 PM

Caligula:

Americans are an odd breed.

By the end of WWII we possesssed the mightiest and most effective military force the world had ever known. The goal of every tinpot dictator was within our grasp - total world domination. No one could have opposed us. Instead, we redirected that force and energy, not to mention money, to rebuilding every war-ravaged area that would allow us to help and within five years were hard-pressed to field an army capable of prevailing in Korea.

We regularly trot out our blunders for examination and self-flagellation, yet dismiss the very real good we do with a sniff as not worth considering.

We can be greedy, sometimes overbearing, grasping and selfish, then turn around and give you the shirts off our backs without a second thought.

The motto of the Special Forces is "To Free the Oppressed" and this is more than a couple of pretty words since we really mean it, not just for SF but as a nation.

We can be self-absorbed, pampered, luxury-loving and completely unrealistic in our expectations, but try to shove us around just once too often and we become the most formidable and implacable of foes.

At heart we are a kindly and gentle people, quite courteous for the most part and forebearing to a fault.

From time to time, fools have seen this gentle, softer nature as being weakness and failed to notice the ice and iron beneath.

As near as I can figure, I am the 18th generation of an American family we never considered as particularly military except for some time spent with Washington at Valley Forge, aboard the USS Constitution, in the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam.

We went, we did what needed to be done and came home to pick up our lives. I expect we will do so again, and again, and as often as is necessary until there are no more oppressed to be freed.