Arrow weight for elk

[Smokepole]

For you guys that hunt elk, what arrow weights (with braodhead) do you use and recommend? I'll be using a 58# longbow and pulling a little more than that. So I'll be (hopefully) shooting from close in.

[Chris57]

Smoke,

Since no one else has responded, here's what I've heard as a general rule of thumb. 10 grains per lb, so 580 grain arrow for 58lb bow, including point. Also, good to get field points that weigh the same as the broadhead you'll be using.

[Smokepole]

That's what I've heard too, but here's why I asked, this research seems to point to a heavier arrow (and good single blade COC 3:1 broadhead) for traditional gear and something as big as an elk (this is copyrighted by Dr. Ed Ashby):

TO ACHIEVE .57 POUND-SECONDS OF MOMENTUM: (The average momentum of the "Adequate" performing arrow/broadhead combinations in Natal Study, all of which had broadheads of 3.0 mechanical advantage and shafts equal to, or smaller than, the broadhead ferrule in daimeter):

A 900 Grain Arrow must reach a velocity of 142 Ft./Sec.

A 740 Grain Arrow must reach a velocity of 161 Ft./Sec.

A 550 Grain Arrow must reach a velocity of 234 Ft./Sec.

A 450 Grain Arrow must reach a velocity of 285 Ft./Sec.

A 350 Grain Arrow must reach a velocity of 367 Ft./Sec.


EFFECT OF INCREASED ARROW MASS:

With 94# longbow:

A. Arrow of 650 Grains has 184.5 FPS velocity and Momentum = .54 Pound- Seconds.

B. When arrow mass is increased to 785 Grains, velocity is 175 FPS velocity and Momentum = .61 Pound-Seconds.

C. When arrow mass is increased to 1286 Grains velocity is 154 FPS and Momentum = .88 Pound-Seconds.

In these examples an increase in arrow mass of 21% results in a velocity decrease of only 5.1% but increases momentum by 12.9% (Arrow 'A' compared to Arrow 'B'). A mass increase of 98% results in a velocity decrease of only 16.6% and a momentum increase of 63% (Arrow 'A' compared to Arrow 'C').

Copyright 1996 Dr. W.E (Ed) Ashby

[falcon]

The main thing is getting those arrows flying as good as possible. If your 2018's are wagging at 620 grains, but "flying like darts", at 560 gr., I would take the latter.

With any head over 125 gr. they should come in at least 570ish. 700 grains would be some penetration insurance, but 900 won't be enough if you hit it in the leg.

It gives you something to do and think about all year, just like which Ti pot to use backpacking in. Good luck, Glynn

[falcon]

Smokepole, that study mostly centered around Cape and Water buffs, animals that are much harder to penetrate than elk. One inch thick hide, for instance.

No doubt it would crossover well for elk, but people been killing them just fine with 550 gr. arrows at 170 fps. or thereabouts for awhile.

Every year on bowsites far and wide people ask, "is 40, 45, 50#, enough for elk? But most bows that are 60#, and especially your Pronghorn, throw an arrow that is plenty good medicine for wapiti. Glynn

[Smokepole]

Thanks falcon, that is the kind of info. I'm looking for, but also like you said "insurance" in case I hit the scapula or a rib dead on.

I figure since I'll (again, hopefully) be shooting from in close, trajectory won't be as critical as "insurance" on penetration.

I'll definitely try some heavier arrows with heavier broadheads once I get some practice in and I'm shooting consistently.

Here's a question, though, for instinctive shooting, isn't it best to pick an arrow weight and stay close to that weight for all your practice? In other words, if you change weights, won't that throw you off if you get used to a certain trajectory? Or is it not that big a deal?

And I don't have the Pronghorn just yet, I have to wait until Christmas. Talk about being like a kid on Christmas Eve! I did manage to sneak down to the archery shop this weekend and shoot it for a while, though.

[et]

My Thunderhorn is propably comparable to your bow so here is my experience for my R/D bow at 62# I try to run 650-680 grains. As I generally shoot wood out of that bow I have run them up to 750 grains with good results. The trick is to get your arrow to fly the best it can. Adding to much weight up front can mess up your FOC % and cause problems, the challenge is finding the right combination of shaft weight and the weight of the broadhead. I have had two complete pass throughs on shots 25-28yds out, one with wood and the other shooting 2219.

This year it looked like I was going to have to use my 50# longbow due to a shoulder problem so I played with making up heavy arrows to use for elk and goat. I made up some laminated birch shafts that weighed in at 590 grains before adding the broadhead. 125 grain heads put them in at 720 gr but they needed at least 180 gr up front to fly well. The bow just couldn't shoot 800 gr arrows with any zip so there is an upper limit to arrow weight.
My favorite arrow in Aluminum is the 2020. I like the weight per inch and the durability. With the different weights in BH's and adapters for glue on heads one can build a pretty heavy arrow that flies great. As much as I like to get close for hunting I enjoy shooting out 40-50 yrds and real heavy arrows are just not enjoyable for those shoots at the 3-d range or stump shooting. 650 gr has been a good compromise for my Thunderhorn. et

[imported_Mark]

Currently I'm shooting a 53# Wes Wallace longbow. I'm shooting homemade old growth pine arrows that weigh in at 740 grain. This includes the 145 grain grizzly broadhead.

I really like this set up for a few reasons. Great penetration and the heavier arrow also quites my bow down, not that it's all that loud with a lighter arrow but now it's like a whisper.

There is a noticable drop once the range increases to around 25 yards with the heavy arrow.

As it has already been said, many diffrent set ups have killed elk cleanly. Make sure your arrow flys true and that you are accurate with it.

[Spence]

Smoke,
All good info...for what its worth, a 350 grain arrow leaving at 271 fps will shoot THRU a bull at 25 yards. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Smokepole]

Thanks, Spence, but I don't think I can get 270 fps with my bow. Hence, the need for more weight, I believe.

[bob@helleknife.com]

Smokepole,

I have taken a number of elk with a 60 lb recurve and 2018 arrows.

Never crono the bow but I think I am around 185 fps, not slow, not fast.

Finished arrows are about 565 grains.

I believe that it is highly improbable that you can blow through an elk's scapula with any archery equipment. You might get through the edge but not through the center.

Good luck in your elk hunting.

Bob

[Spence]

Bob,
That's what I thought too until this year. I had to make a quick shot and hit the bull square in the scapula at 25 yards. 4 blade Muzzy punched clear through it and continued on to the far side of his chest. That scapula had to be 1/4"-1/2" thick at least. Not an ideal shot, but nice to know the arrow's potential.

[flatlander]

Spence, Were you a little above the elk? I wonder if it makes a difference if you hit the scapula at a 90 degree angle vs angling across. I know a few archers that didnt make it through the scapula of a whitetail {IOwa buck} at 20 yards.One of them was also shooting a muzzy, it was 125 gr 3 blade. I thought just like you and Bob, that it was very unlikely to get through the scapula of an elk. Dean

[Smokepole]

If you look at the Natal study that Ken posted the link to, part of it was bone penetration tests on African game, including the scapula. They used heavier arrows, though, and their research points to arrows in the 700 grain range and up for bone penetration.

I'd like to hear more about scapula hits on elk, though, what worked and what didn't.

And I don't plan on shooting at the scapula, but if there's an arrow/broadhead combination out there that has a good chance of punching through, I'd use it.

[Ken]

Smoke- I'd try a half dozen 4560 CE Terminators and see where they fly the best with various tip weights. If you can't get enough on them, the 6075's should do the trick. They are 11 and 12 grs./inch respectively...nice and heavy.

[Smokepole]

Ken, are these wood or carbon? Is there a reference on the weight per inch of the various aluminum shafts that you know of? Anyone know off-hand what 2018's and 2020's weigh per inch?

[Spence]

Flatlander,
We(the bull and I) were dead level in a meadow, 25 yds, broadside. It was a PSE extreme carbon arrow, tipped with the 90 grain Muzzy.

[falcon]

Smokepole,

To get heavy alum. arrows you need to go with a slightly stiff spine and weigh up the front. Or go with hickory or ash or laminated birch. A few carbons, like the Grizzly Stiks come heavy, and some, like the Goldtip 100, can be loaded with all kinds of straws and insert weights.

Some penetration testing with carbon arrows shooting the same weight arrows, some weighted full length(straws,inserts)and some weighted up front with heavy heads and higher FOC, found the heavy up front arrows penetrated better.

My 2020's with 3 four inch fletch, nock and insert weigh 425 gr. at 29" BOP. They bareshaft a hair stiff with 200 gr. points, so I put 100 gr. steel inserts into my 125 gr. Wensels to get 225 gr. heads. They fly great, and weigh 650 gr.

That is out of a 63# bow. Since you are shooting a longer arrow, you would probably be able to shoot 200 or 175 gr. heads on 2020's and still get 600+ gr.

I have some 6075 CX Terminator Selects set up almost identical. The shafts, feathers, nock weigh 370. They bareshaft with 200 or 250 gr. points for a 570 to 620 gr. arrow.

For the same bow I have some Easton Axis 340's. Same setup and with 250 gr. up front they come in at 560. It is incredible to watch these suckers fly and they have an annoying habit of shooting through my bag target into the plywood backstop. My other arrows rarely do that even in the shot out part of the bag.

Even though the 2020's are the heaviest, I think I'll be carrying the 340's. I lose 90 grains, and gain 12 fps, but the way they fly and hit is what is swaying me.

You new guys are getting years of experimenting all at once to mull over. Heck, it took a few years just for me to warm up to shooting a carbon.

But you still have to get out there and shoot and shoot and make up your own mind about where you're going to fall in the big tent of trad archery. It's just part of it. Glynn

[Smokepole]

Glynn, thanks for the info., you're right, it's years worth of valuable stuff and I greatly appreciate it as well as soak it all up like a sponge.

I'm assuming the Easton Axis 340s are carbon and that the shafts are smaller diameter than the 2020s, is that right and do you think the diameter has anything to do with how they penetrate the target? Or do you think it's the weight up front? Also, who makes the steel inserts? Do steel inserts go into the broadhead, into the front of the shaft, or what?

There's another two years of free information!!

[falcon]

Yes, the 340's are carbons, very consistent in spine and weight, unlike some, and they are a smaller diameter. 17/64 I believe.

Any shaft that is smaller than the ferrule of the broadhead contributes to penetration IMO. I'm sure it is part of the reason they blow through the bag. Those 250 gr. fieldpoints look like teargas cannisters on the front of these arrows.

But, man, they are lasers from the bow to the target!

There are a variety of inserts and broadhead adapters to help us who cant leave well enough alone.

I'm a weight up front kinda guy, if you hadn't guessed. I got it from listening to the O.L Adcock, Ashby, Morrison camp and their logic. It has never disappointed me.

Three Rivers, Kustom King, Black Widow, Morrison archery, all carry 100 and 125 gr. broadhead adapters. These glue into any glue on type broadhead to really weigh them up. You also have your regular 29 and 45 gr. aluminum BH adapters. Add to this all kinds of broadheads weighing 100, 125,145,150,160,190,200 gr. and you can come up with about any combo that happens to bareshaft or tune from your bow.

They also make alum. inserts that go into the front of the shaft that can you can screw different weights into, in case you want to use a broadhead that comes ready to screw in of a certain weight.

Others provide aftermarket inserts for carbons that are made of steel or brass so you can do the same.

You can shoot an arrow with a 70 gr. brass insert,125 gr. BH adapter, and 200 gr. broadhead for almost 400 gr. up front if you start with a stiff enough spined arrow shaft to have it tune to your set up. Lots of ways to skin cats in between.

Well, there's some for you to ponder, have a good one. Glynn

[Ken]

...let it be known that us new guys really appreciate the input form you fellas that have been down this road before...

What arrows have you had trouble with spine consistancy Glynn?

[Ken]

Here's some interesting reading Smoke...

http://tradgang.com//noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001376

[Smokepole]

falcon, I can't seem to find info. on spine of the axis carbon arrows, I'm assuming the 340s are plenty stiff enough for a 60-lb. bow because they have to be with 250 grain points, right? Do the 340s have the same spine as 300s, or are the 300s more stiff?

Would 300's be too stiff for a 60-lb. bow?

You could get the same arrow weight using 300s and a lighter tip, but I'm gathering that your opinion is that the lighter shafts and heavier heads penetrate better, given the same total weight.

[Kevin]

Go see Mike Beckwith in Erie. He'll bring out a dozen or so arrows of different types that should shoot well in your bow, and help you find the one that shoots best. Then buy your arrows there.

For me, it was the Easton Axis.

It's a lot easier than ruminating about the subject for weeks on the web.

[Smokepole]

Thanks Kevin, does he have a shop, if so, what's the name?

I don't mind a little rumination now and then, I'm learning a lot.

[Kevin]

Mike Beckwith is a retired guy from Storage Tek, I think he was a prototype machinist or something. He has a shop in Erie, complete with a range, where he makes bows. Good guy, excellent hunter, and excellent bowyer.

303 833 1992. (Hawk Recurves)

He's off HWY 52 and I-25, a long ride, but worth doing, particularly if you want to shoot carbons.
He's had an arrow business for 20 years that I know of.

[bob@helleknife.com]

Spence,

The only thing I know for sure is it seems anything is possible in this bow and arrow stuff.

Any chance you saved that scapula? Sure like to see a photo. Do you think that the Muzzy "bullet" head...I guess they call it the tricor(?) tip or some such...was responsible for getting through? Did it slice through or blow through the bone?

I got a scapula that was centered by a Wensel Woodsman. After the beetles get it cleaned up I will post a photo.

Thanks,

Bob

[falcon]

Smokepole,

The above is not really any kind of penetration test. By the time summer comes around I may have my 2020's back in the quiver. They have weight on their side and a trajectory I am intimate with.

I personally don't like shafts over 5/16 (20 series) because the arrow is bigger than the BH ferrule and I just like thinner arrows, the bigger ones that spine out of my bow have lighter sidewalls. Makes it hard to get over 600 grains total till you get to the 2219's.

et said it all above in his post, he also got a complete passthru with the 2219, so there you go, take your pick.

I do differ with him on the FOC matter, but people argue about what is too much . My 2020's run 15.3% and the Axis are 18.9%. I've heard of people shooting 25% with good results. Compound shooters usually try to stay in the 10% range, but they also shoot 85 gr. broadheads.

I shoot my arrows out to 50 yds and have not seen the myth of them "dropping like a rock past 20 yds." at all.

In fact I'm going stumping right now and I will fling a few 90's just to recheck.
Glynn

[O.L. Adcock]

Glynn, I agree, there is no such thing as too much FOC. Dr. Ashby has another study that will be out sometime after the 1st of the year that will shed some light on that. My eyeball is calibrated to speeds around 170-175 so I simply pick an arrow weight that gives that to me and it's around 12-13gr/lb with my bows. Others might like something faster. Hard to go wrong with the 10gr/lb rules of thumb unless bow weight or performance is very low....O.L.

[falcon]

The numbers on Easton shafts indicate their deflection or spine. Spine is arrived at by hanging a two pound weight in the middle of the shaft which is supported between two posts set 26 inches apart.

500's are .500 or half an inch, 400 = .400". The stiffer the arrow the lower the number.

Since you are using a longer arrow, you may be able to get 300's to fly with a heavy head.

Easton makes arrows in 460, 600, 700, and 1000 deflection too. Not for elk, though.

[Smokepole]

Thanks, falcon, no wonder I couldn't find spine info........

[falcon]

http://www.rosecityarchery.com/amospine.html

Here is a chart for some comparison. I went to Foxfire archery, Kelly's old site, and looked at his arrow chart as well.

A 2016 is 61#, a 2018 is 67#, and a 2020 went 77#'s. The old green gamegetter shafts that you can still get sometimes for cheaper, ran a little stiffer. 63#, 70#, and 80# respectively.

Glynn

[falcon]

http://www.arrowsbykelly.com/

Here's that site, click on spine charts.

Glynn

[O'B]

What Kevin said about Mike. I shoot one of his recurves and I"m very happy with it. You might give one of his bows a look to consider down the road. Sure wish O. L. had a production ACS CX available. In any case, you might want to try tradtalk.com too. Great site with a vast level of experience to chime in. Very helpful.

[Spence]

Bob,
I'm sure the Muzzy's tip design is mostly responsible, the arrow sliced through the scapula with just a hole in the center for the shaft. I was thinking of keeping it when I was butchering him, but at 10pm in the rain with a full load of meat, I opted for a warm tipi instead of fooling around any more. I know where to get it and might head up there in the spring.

[falcon]

Does anyone shoot aluminum 2020's cut to 29 inches? How about Ribtek 160's? Carbon Express 6075's at 29"? I need to talk to you about them.
Glynn

[razorsharp]

Falcon,
I just switched from 2020's to carbons but they were all over 29 inches.

[rogbo69]

When I first started bowhunting (shooting compounds) I was flinging 2219's at abor 30 inches long with 125 grain thunderheads. I don't know the weight but they flew well and went clean through everything I shot. Got caught up in the speed thing for a while and started shooting sub 400 grain arrows from 70 lb compounds, Most of the time got complete pass throughs. Now having migrated back and forth between the wheels and the bent stick I am shooting about 58-60 lbs and firing (lobbing is more like it) 700 grain ICBM's down range. I am convinced that these heavy shafts, with plenty of FOC (total weight up front with my inserts is 330 grains) is the way to go. I even shoot these killers from my compound when I shoot that thing. This is all based on my experiences with the 2219, way back in the day. The only shoulder blade I have struck (knock on wood) was a mule deer at 40 yards. Penetrated the front shoulder blade, dead center traversed the chest cavity, penetrated the off shoulder scapula, dead center and the arrow was hanging about 4 inches out the far shoulder. I really don't think my sub 400 grain arrow would have been able to do that no matter what bow was pushing it. Falcon, I have some 4560's that I shoot at about 29 inches. Depends on your question, I might have an answer.

[et]

Glynn,
My 2020 are cut at 30" but I have shot the 160 rib techs for a while. I started off with them as they were a cheap way to play with different weight broadheads. I have actually really enjoyed shooting them. Given their price and durability I have been using them for stump shooting. I have yet to use them on big game.

Regarding the FOC, I have always based my information, regarding FOC, on Roy Marlow's book "Timeless Bowhunting" in which he does mention an upper limit even for target archery.(Have to look up the number at home). Not opposed to learning new facts however. In hind sight I can see how I would not be able to get extreme/high FOC using wood or aluminum shafting with out really going beyond the "norm". I will have to play with this a bit. This last study doesn’t seem as clear cut to me as the previous ones. Not quite sure yet how to implement it in a hunting situation. One could go with carbons but this would sacrifice overall mass. If one goes with a carbon such as the Grizzly stick your back in the same boat as if one were to use aluminum or wood due to the grains/inch.
Now this brings up the properties of carbon which allows (according to a ski manufacture)one to cut the weight by 3/4 yet still have the 2x the "properties". Now in skiing I would assume he means by "properties" the same strength, flexibility etc. If this is true for arrows, carbon may be the most versatile shafting out there. It is amazing that a shaft will cover so many different "spines". It may be that a very high FOC can compensate for the archers paradox to such a degree that spine isn't so critical for tuning.(the head "pulls" the arrow back in line quicker")Due to the general low weight of carbon shafts a higher FOC comes about naturally.

Now, I will really step off the deep end, no problems with people telling me I have it backwards. In many "primitive" archery societies with out the raw material or means to manufacture consistently spined arrows or in which the bows are basically disposable they use very long shafted arrows. In the past I have all ways heard that it was because the longer shaft allows the point to be closer too being in line with the direction of arrow travel. (The angle the point is resting at full draw on a non-center shot bow to the target is less with a longer arrow then a short one.)Now that I have reread this I'll have to dig up this angle thing as lenght of shaft shouldn't change the angle that I have described.

Now, I am thinking that it is a combination of "target, point angle" and high FOC. The head of the arrow is basically every thing in front of the rest at full draw which would give one a high FOC with out an extremely weighted head.
So for me to get a high FOC, high arrow mass I should be leaving my arrows full length and tapering my shafts. Part of the "fun" with traditional archery is farting around with the gear and "proving" things that just are not physically possible.
I had a friend struggling with some very finely crafted wood arrows and in desperation grabbed a 1/2 doz carbons and has never looked back. et

[falcon]

Hey I'm back, I'm sorry I should have been clearer about what I'm doing. Thanks for your replys.

Have had such good luck with the Axis carbons and the way they're flying, that I no longer shoot the alum. The CE 6075's are good arrows too, I would recommend them, but am enamored with the others. I did some spring cleaning last week and this stuff just needs a new home. They're free.

rogbo69, those sound like some serious arrows! Went through his shoulders like a 35 Whelen.

et, I think the Ribteks are overlooked. They sharpen up easy and I don't think you have to worry about the tip curling. I recall I read that Purist used them for hunting, maybe he killed an elk with them. I have a bunch of BH's on my bench, and I'm clearing these out to try some 190's.

Although people say carbons cover a wide range of spine, in physical reality there has to be just one "right" combo for each bow. That combo can be manipulated with length and point weight several ways, no doubt. The quick recovery aspect leads some to believe that "not so perfect" arrow combos are OK sometimes. To a degree, yes. IMO

I've seen some documentaries where the long arrow thing was going on. Didn't think about the arrows making the bow work.

Anyway, first come, first serve. I'll take PM's in order.
Glynn

[falcon]

They're gone