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murphquake
06-05-2002, 06:20 PM
Mel,
From what i see it looks as if the modular pockets have just one row of webbing at a time on their rear sides that would attach to the pack.. are malice clips going to be used on this webbing? If so I think it may be prudent to add a second webbing bar at each spot directly above or below the first ones so that the Malice clips have somethign to hold on to. Just conjecture here. Thank you for these wonderful dreams.
-bill

Mel
06-05-2002, 11:27 PM
Murph: The Kifaru modular pockets don't use Malice Clips. They use the patented Dock n' Lock system. The pockets have a combined compression and attachment system. Let me try and explain. The webbing you see on the long pockets is sewn down on the back of the pocket and both ends wrap around the pocket and thread through opposite tension lock buckles. You can then compress the pocket from both directions. After the webbing is threaded through the tension locks, you install adjustable male side release (fastex) buckles on the webbing. You then take slotted quick attach female side release buckles and insert them onto the appropriate slot of PALS webbing. You should now have 4 quick attach female buckles attached to the PALS webbing. Take your pocket and put it in place, and then click in the 4 adjustable male buckles. Now, just cinch up the straps and your pocket is locked onto the pack. If you want to take the pocket off, four clicks and it's off. If you have quick attach females attached, to say, the Scout already, then you could quickly mount that pocket on the Scout with four clicks. It may sound complicated, the way I described it, but it's actually very simple in use. On the long side pockets, you can click out either side to swing out and access the side zips. If it's still a little fuzzy to you, let me know, and I'll try and explain it better.

Mel

Jan
06-06-2002, 01:37 AM
Hi,
I'm new to this board and actually pretty new to the whole military gear thing. I came to appreciate quality gear after being a conscript with the German military back in '99 BECAUSE WE NEVER HAD QUALITY GEAR!! Talk about the lowest bidder, boy I tell you. The best G3 or G36 is no use if you can't the magazines out of the stinkin' pouches! My gear supply situation is kind of complicated because I'm here in Germany and all the great companies (Eagle, SOE, and now Kifaru) are in the US.
Anyway, about the modular pockets: Mel, it sounds like the PALS part of the webbing on the accessory pouches is not really used at all then, right? How do the pockets keep hanging on to the pack when you empty them out? I imagine that they would flap around (unless of course you tighten the straps back up)

Jan
06-06-2002, 03:51 AM
Folks, I don't know how many of you already know this but Mel just emailed me about water bottle holders. Kifaru will come out with 32 oz. Nalgene widemouth water bottle pouches (of course MOLLE compatible). What a great accessory to attach to the hipbelt of either EMR or Scout (or both!). Especially since Eagle hasn't come out with their MOLLE compatible stuff yet.
One question though about the MOLLE pouches: they have several bars of webbing (1" webbing 1" apart) on the backside and then one or two strips of webbing that you have to fiddle through the pouch loops and the vest/ruck loops and so on. The whole thing attaches with a snap button at the bottom. If I'm wrong please correct me. After all, I'm just a German civilian. Anyway, on the EMR/Scout hipbelts there are only two strips of webbing. Can you steadily attach a pouch to that with the system described above? Thanks for the all the info, guys!

Patrick
06-06-2002, 09:18 AM
Guys, Mel--

As the builder of these pack/pocket systems let me try to explain our pocket attachment method. I think the initial confusion stems from the APPEARANCE of PAL-ized webbing on the back side of our pockets. In actuality this is just a very strong way for us to anchor the webbing attachment/compression straps to the back of the pack. Imagine these straps SEWN down instead of bartacked down and the confusion goes away. To repeat, the webbing on the backside of the pockets is not intended as a connection-to-the-pack at all. Instead, the connection is from the TOP of the pocket, around the sides. It is amazingly quick on and off--infinitly faster than Malice, etc.--AND compresses the pockets--even empty, the pockets cannot slop around.

So. Just think of those bartacks on the back of the pockets as if they were a box stitch pattern and you'll be OK. OK? If not, we'll have another go at this.

Patrick

Patrick
06-06-2002, 09:35 AM
Well dang!

I flubbed up on one word in my post re our pocket attachment system, so let's correct that.

Where I say "In actuality this is just a very strong way for us to anchor the webbing attachment/compression straps to the back of the PACK", this last word should read POCKET, as in the pocket itself. Clear now? Sorry for the screw up in my explanation. It's early here in Golden and I've only had one cup of coffee so far.

Say Murphquake, I've been hearing it takes multiple hits ( as in five, six ) to put the buggers down in Afghanistan. I am confident one smack center-of-mass from a good ol' .308 will get the job done. In fairness, tho, the bullets seem to be at least part of the issue, and the operators are rapidly getting re-supplied with better projectiles. Still, that .308 will ALWAYS get the job done, period, no matter the projectile. What have you been hearing?

Patrick

Mel
06-06-2002, 12:55 PM
Hey Jan, good to have you here. The two rows of PALS webbing work fine when attaching MOLLE compatable pockets, either with MOLLE or Malice attachments.

I want to comment some more on the Kifaru Dock & Lock system. A simple way to describe it, is you are able to take slotted quick attach female buckles and put them on the PALS webbing (4 of them) wherever you want to mount the pocket. You have male buckles on the four webbing ends on the pocket, just click in and tighten. There will be more detailed photos coming on the website, with close-ups of this system.

Mel

murphquake
06-06-2002, 03:37 PM
Mel,
Gotcha, so the pals compatability is that the male ends of the QR buckles are the open type that you can slip on the pals webbing. Very cool idea.

Patrick,
I haven't heard too much, the one person who's back from "over there" that I talked to didn't mention anything. Then again if you miss with an M4/M16 it's just as ineffective as missing with a .308, ya know? We hear the same thing every conflict lately, but the 5.56 NATO round has proven its relative effectiveness many many times, I don't believe anyone who says it's more effective than .308, but I don't think it's worthless as a military cartridge. Here in nyc most of the GSWs are pistol caliber and do more than enough damage to make a mess, maybe everyone really needs an MP5 (or better yet cause it's prettier UMP45s) The packs look awesome, keep up the good work!
-bill

Jan
06-06-2002, 04:34 PM
Hi,
I don't want to fuel the pocket attachment debate again, but I have another question: having understood the mechanism of the dock and lock system, how can you attach the longpockets horizontally? I mean, the compression straps run from top to bottom then and the slotted quick attach female buckles wouldn't be in line with the PALS webbing at all. Basically the question boils down to this: can I attach a longpocket across the top hood of the pack and then another one horizontally across the front of the pack above the piggybacked Scout? That way I'd still have two extra pockets but with a much slimmer profile.

Mel
06-06-2002, 05:35 PM
Jan: Yes, you can attach a long pocket horizontally on the top, across the front, or on the sleeping bag compartment. Believe it or not, you can actually fit 3 long pockets horizontally on the sleeping bag compartment. One on each side and one on the front. It looks kinda cool in this configuration. The way you mount the pocket horizontally is like this. Take off the fastex buckles, undo the webbing straps from the tension locks. Now, place the pocket where you want it mounted, and thread the webbing straps under the PALS webbing vertically. Two going up and two down, and wrap the webbing around and thread back through the 4 tension locks and compress. There will be a "tip sheet" that will tell you the spacing and pattern to use on the PALS for each different size pocket. Again, MUCH easier done than said. On the EMR section on the website, click on "Long Pocket Configurations", and you'll see a horizontal mount. Hope this helped.

Mel

Razor
06-11-2002, 02:14 PM
Pat,

Having spoken with a number of guys coming back from CENTCOM ops, the 5.56mm hasn't been a real concern of the troops. They have faith in their weapon, its caliber, and most importantly in their skills in using them.

Out of curiosity, have you folks up in Golden contacted any of the 10th SFG boys down here in the Springs to have them do some field evals and "torture tests" of your ruck? Being a FAG (former action guy) down there, I know there are plenty of guys willing and able to put the bag through its paces; they'd also LOVE to find a modular ruck lighter and more user-friendly than the UM-21. If you're interested, drop me an e-mail.

Patrick
06-11-2002, 06:45 PM
Welcome Razor--

I am mighty glad to hear that the 5.56 is doing just fine after all. Thanks for that report.

Yes, we do have something lined up down there, thanks much. Say, if you're that close to Golden you should mosey up, at your convenience, and see the gear. We should have some at hand in perhaps thirty days, or thereabouts--all units we are producing now are heading out the door to be hammered by testers Mel has lined up. Give me a call when you think you might wanna roll by. I'm buying the uh, coffee. Number is 800-222-6139. We'd be tickled to hear from you.

Patrick

Razor
06-12-2002, 09:04 AM
Will do! Thanks for the invite.

murphquake
06-13-2002, 06:24 AM
Razor,
is it just me or does the top of the EMR look like it should be the true home of the asspack from the UM21?

Patrick,
There's mention on the site of the lid of the EMR being removable, any chance of this becoming some sort of bandoleer or satchel? if this were a QR piece it would be a great place for some mag pouches to snatch for when the going gets tough... have you guys figured out a good trailmix pouch for the waistbelt yet? one last thing: for a ruck this big is one 100oz water bladder (and im thinking camelbak storm at least here) the size to be aiming for? perhaps a dual bladder system should be looked at, plus the ability to get to them easily from a packed ruck would be nice... another idea is to have the bladder sleeves made with elastic bands of some sort to help compress them and keep them stable.
-bill

Patrick
06-13-2002, 08:49 AM
Hello Bill--

Good questions. Let's start at the top. Yes, a plug-in shoulder sling would be a very doable option for the EMR lid. Just ask for one when you order. I'd guess the cost at six bucks. You could store it in the sleeve pocket in the bottom of the lid. We'd even put padding in the middle of the sling.

On pockets, we are just getting started. We've designed the packs to accept an incredible variety of pockets in an incredible array of locations. The short answer is you can have any sort of pocket you want. Stick around, we have many more specialized versions in the chute--and all will plug right in to the system.

The water bladder compartment is designed for a 100 ouncer, yes. You can probably get two in there. The location of this sleeve-like pocket, and its drawstring closure system, is wholly intended for very quick access/removal. When you see it you'll understand. Very accessable, etc. Very stable. The shape has everything to do with this. It's kinda bellows-like.

Keep the questions coming y'all. This is fun! As Mel told you, we are very nearly ready to push the button ond open up for business. Next week, maybe as early as Monday!

Patrick

Mel
06-13-2002, 01:51 PM
Murph:

I'm betting there will be a future KIFARU asspack making it's home, instead, on the top of the EMR.

I'd like to jump in here on this removable top lid discussion. I've been playing around with mine and have come up with a couple ideas. You not only can click in a shoulder sling that can go over the head and across the shoulder, but you'll be able to click in a waiststrap to keep it from flopping. This way you can carry it like a satchel bag. I put 4 Tactical Tailor mag pouches across the top (12 mags), and then tried it with 2 mag pouches and a TT zip utility pouch. With all the PALS webbing, the options are endless. Then I'm looking at this and think, what if I just put a claymore pocket under the top lid? The claymore fits perfect inside the skirt that wraps around the top lid. A couple utility straps to secure the claymore pocket, and viola, you got a cool E&E type satchel bag. Some tab loops added to the top lid is all it would take. Stay tuned!

Mel

Jan
06-23-2002, 05:03 AM
Hi,
does anyone have any experience with the SOE SpecOps Lite Pack? I think it has 4 Fastex attachment points to hook up to the SOE vests, but I was wondering how well this would attach either upright on the EMR main body PALS webbing or sideways on top of the hood. Thanks for the info,
Jan

Mel
06-23-2002, 02:23 PM
Jan:

I used to have an SOE SpecOps Lite Pack, and with the 4 buckles on it, I'm sure you could adapt it somehow to the EMR. There is nothing available from Kifaru at this time for this, though. I could see it working out on the front of the EMR, no problem, but it wouldn't work well, sideways, on the top lid. It's just a little too wide for that. Kifaru's Back Pouch has just over 1000 cubic inches of capacity, and it is made to click right onto the front of the EMR. Hope this helps you.

Mel

Jan
06-23-2002, 03:54 PM
Yes, the Back Pouch seems to be the better (and cheaper) option. Does the Back Pouch attach to the front of the EMR even when the Scout is piggyback carried on the EMR as well? This doesn't seem to work when you attach two long pockets vertically (judging from pics) and the Back Pouch is not really shorter than the long pockets either!?
Oh my, all the possibilities!!! I never thought there might be such a thing as too much PALS webbing!! Just kidding of course!!

Mel
06-23-2002, 07:21 PM
Jan:

You can't use the Scout if you have the Back Pouch, or the two vertical Long Pockets mounted on the front of the EMR. The good news is that you can mount two Claymore Pockets vertical, side by side, and still mount the Scout. The Claymore Pockets, when mounted this way, make excellent utility pockets. They fit perfect, right between the two long pockets on the sides of the EMR, and just above the Scout. And you're right, the possibilities are endless.

Mel

Jan
06-23-2002, 11:13 PM
Here we go again:
how about attaching two Claymore Pouches on the sides of the Scout? Does that work?

Jan
06-24-2002, 12:16 AM
Every time I post I want to ask this and I keep forgetting:
When air traveling with my older pack I always put it in a big nylon/cordura sack just so it is a nice clean bundle and the baggage room gorillas have no straps or anything to rip off (or whatever else they do with it). Is there anything comparable for the EMR (that thing would have to be huge, fitting over the acessory pouches and all)? Thanks!

Mel
06-24-2002, 03:19 PM
Jan:

Yes, you can mount two Claymore Pockets on the sides of the Scout.

Mel

Jan
07-16-2002, 11:37 AM
Has anyone on this forum ever handled that new (actually yet to come out) Lightfighter RAID pack?
(Sorry Mel, not trying to take business away from you!!)
http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum74/HTML/000020.html
It's supposed to be built to easily attach to an Alice pack. I was wondering if the top compression straps on the RAID might have the right width to somehow work with the top flap straps of the EMR (with additional male fastex buckles) and then somehow route the EMR straps that come from the bottom over the RAID; maybe add to that an extra horizontal compression strap over the pack and that should ensure solid lockdown. Does this make sense at all? /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif Input is greatly appreciated! Thanks

Mel
07-16-2002, 07:52 PM
Jan:

And I thought I was the only one that imagined all the endless possibilities to gear compatability (LOL). If you get the optional waistbelt for the RAID pack, you will be able to mount it directly to the EMR with our Scout Attachment Kit. How's that for compatability?!

Mel

Jan
07-17-2002, 10:42 AM
Yeah, I do think about this stuff!!
Difference is though you're getting paid to do this kind of stuff and I'm just doing it for fun. Maybe we can work out a deal here!? Just kidding!
Anyway, how exactly does that piggyback strap system work? Any pictures? Also, any news on the Nalgene pouches? Thanks

Mel
07-19-2002, 01:21 PM
Jan:

If you go to Options and Accessories, and scroll down to the Scout Attachment Kit, you will see a picture. I'll try to explain how it actualy works, but it's much easier than it sounds. If you look at the 2" webbing strap with the buckles, you'll see on each end there is a 2" tri-glide. You insert these tri-glides into the 2" common loops that are sewn onto the EMR waistbelt, right where the webbing starts. Now take the 1" webbing pieces you see and insert the 1" tri-glides into the triangle loops on the side seams of the EMR. The other end of these 1" web straps have an adjustable male buckle and slotted quick attach female buckle. Take the slotted female and insert it on the upper PALS webbing channel on each side of the Scout. Now, put the Scout on the back of the EMR and click in the upper 1" straps and cinch down tight. Wrap the Scout waistbelt around the EMR and click the Scout waistbelt buckles into the 2" buckles mounted on the EMR that are now facing to the rear. Check out the photos closer now on the website to see this, and hopefully it makes sense. If not, I'll try again. Trust me, in actual use it is very simple.

Mel

Jan
07-20-2002, 02:58 AM
Thanks for the superb information. The easiest solution to all the explaining problems will be me holding one of these packs in my hands in the near future and playing with it all day long. I can already see it:
-open top lid of bag
-open closet doors
-position bag in front of closet
-dump closet contents in bag
-shoulder bag and go for a little hike in the deep Eastern German forest.
And to really test the bag I will throw in a few of my 700+ page physics, electrical engineering and other engineering books to simulate ammo cans.
Hey, you have to go with what you got! Till then, rock on!

eggroll
07-30-2002, 11:26 AM
Got my Kifaru EMR and Scout

The Dock and LOCK is a pretty slick system, and when properly adjusted, makes for a tight attach. I am currently using the SCOUT as a office bag carrying Dell 8000 L/T, two 3ring binders a PHP book assorted cabling, and supplies, comes to about 22lbs, when adjusted, really dont notice the weight.

When compressed using the horizontal lashers, the EMR pack has a smaller footprint than the Large Becker. With the modular adjust capability afforded by the DL system, you can arrange the external pockets in any manner you see fit. I currently have two long pockets arranged side by side on the front of the pack ala Dana Design, leaving the sides of the pack free for access via the side zips or connection of the cargo chair assembly. BTW, Loaded about 75 lbs in for a 3 mile walk around the immediate are by my house, no initial problems, the massive hipbelt did the job.

No comparison to the CFP90, more comfortable than the MOLLE, and definitely MORE advanced than any current issue pack.

-Egg

eggroll
01-12-2006, 02:29 PM
old school posting - from back when I got my 'first' scout and EMR, before Kifaru made external pockets utilizing MALICE clips