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jerry wigutow
04-08-2005, 12:07 PM
I have been sitting at my desk eating lunch and perusing 2 magazines, Rescue Technology and SWAT.

I began to think about a great deal of the equipment advertised for rescuing people and what is sold to the rescuers. Most of it is built to very high standards because of its use.

Suppose the companies that offer products to people like yourselves; sportsman, backpackers, etc. put the same thought and quality into their products so they were built to perform in the most critical of circumstances if necessary and coulod provide proof of their nproducts ability to perform, wouldn't you buy these products?

You get on forums like this one voicing in most cases disappointment with this product or that one, why not badger, yes badger the maker when a product doesn't perform so they are aware of your disappointment.

As you know I am very matter of fact about how well my products perform and have no problem saying it. A company that I deal with Smartwool I believe has the best socks in the world, they too should not shy away from saying it but they do. I know their socks are good not only because I use them but I have seen several other companies copying them. They are more expensive thean the rest but because they are good people buy them. You probably know of other companies, how can I for get Kifaru, that are good and proud makers but they are few and far between.

WHAT IF copmany managers started to think like the Japanese?

William Clunie
04-08-2005, 02:28 PM
Jerry,
I think a board like this one is a perfect place for a progressive-thinking company to keep in touch with their fans and their competitors. If you have noticed, those in charge of the companies don't hardly need to respond much to the few troublemakers that appear on these boards. If they are making a quality item and stand behind it (like you, Kifaru, Buffalo Bullets, T/C Arms, Ruger, Smart Wool, etc.), the satified customers pitch in and put the mealy mouths in their place.
You are right -- this is the best feedback available. It works like the screen on the bottom of a chicken cage, all the turds are dropped out.
Keep producing quality gear and reading these boards. As you probably already know, experienced consumers gravitate toward quality products.
William Clunie

jerry wigutow
04-08-2005, 02:52 PM
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of garment makers specifically.

Dave R.
04-08-2005, 08:37 PM
Hi Wiggy....nice thread...no pun intended...I just read your online newsletter!!

Have you ever considered having an independent test lab test your bags in a Real Outdoor setting with real humans, rather than copper dummies inside your bags?? How about a test where the testers dunk your bags in a freezing cold river, squeeze them out, then place naked humans inside and ask them to spend the night at say 10 below zero. That would really get people's attention, epecially if the results were not coming directly from you, but from the lab. The testimonies from the test subjects would be amazing.

Or...how about an independent test that puts your bags against others in the Yukon...after 30 days of subzero sleeping, the bags could be weighed for ice build-up....you could call it the "Wiggy's Challenge"...maybe run it concurrent with the Iditerod!!!

Dave

Ken
04-08-2005, 08:54 PM
uuuhhh...I'd like to be a test dummy...

Jerry, send me an Ultima or maybe a Antarctic and I test it out all next winter and let you know what I think...

/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

04-08-2005, 09:55 PM
Huh...

I think there a MANY CO's out there building top-notch stuff... Mystery Ranch, Western Mountaineering, Black Diamond, Petzl, on and on and on... It's easy to buy crap... go to wally world or Cabela's. The best just cost's more in terms of research and money.

jerry wigutow
04-09-2005, 09:13 AM
dave,

i once gave two bags to natick test labs from my original sleeping bag company in 1978 when i was not in the sleeping bag business and the test results were very good, more importantly the clo value increased after laundering.this was performed on a copper manikin. i'll publish those results next week when i am in my office wher i have them. in 1986 or 7 i paid kansas st. un. environmental labs $1000.00 to test a bag on their copper manikin and again the results in clo were very good. however, in each case they the testers refused to apply a temperature rating to the clo rating in f or c.
it was at this point i decided that clo had no value. so ALL of my bags are tested by living breathing human beings. there have been people in alaska who have tried to soak a wiggy antarctic bag specifically in their home and take it out side and sleep in it. the bag simply wouldn't retain the water, see "why wiggy's bags can't have condensation".
the military specifically the cold regions school of the airforce located in greeley alaska has tested my bag against all others and settled on the anarctic bag several years ago since nothing came close. my antarctic bags have replaced 16 pound eddie bauer bags in antarctica when no other companies bags came close.
most of the iditarod racers, vets and general field workers buy my bags and clothing so I believe the testing and endorsements are taken care of.
however, a wiggy challenge sounds interesting i may persue it.

by the way I noted yeterday that ll bean has removed the MH lamina bags from their web site, i may have to amend my newsletter and congratulate them as i did rei.

ken, no testing is necessary just get one and enjoy.

brad,
i am not so sure the companies you noted fit the category as you have stated. Cabela's carries wiggy's so they are not in the caegory of wally world.

DJ
04-09-2005, 10:34 AM
Jerry, have you submitted any of your gear for independent field testing for the Backpacker or Outside Magazines' buyers' guides or BackPackGearTest.org?

04-09-2005, 11:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i am not so sure the companies you noted fit the category as you have stated. Cabela's carries wiggy's so they are not in the caegory of wally world.</div></div>Western Mountaineering and Mystery Ranch not one of the "good and proud companie"?

So Cabela's, cause they carry your stuff, is great? Much of Cabela's stuff is crap... probably not in the Wally World categopry but close...

jerry wigutow
04-09-2005, 12:17 PM
dj
the simple answer is no.
bp did purchase but never paid for a ultr light that was given to larry amkraut to field test which he did and they never published his article. it was favorable to me but he DIDNOT say I have the absolute best bag.
when the folks at any magazine demonstrate they know how to make sleeping bags then they can be considered viable testers.

brad,
western makes down bags which maybe good as far as down bags are concerned but can not be counted on anymore than any other down bag maker for ALL situations.
if his first company had to be sold because he couldn't make money at it why should his second company be any better. if i were to pick out a pack company I would chose kifaru as a usa producer and crossfire from australia as the most viable pack makers who have actually thoughout why they do as they do and have a product that can be depended uopn in the toughest of situations. i doubt that mr has done that.
as for cabela's they aren't as big in the hunting market as they are selling bad products. they seek out suppliers as they did wiggy's, i did not solicit them and i think they are a feather in my cap.

Levi
04-09-2005, 04:06 PM
Jerry said:

"why not badger, yes badger the maker when a product doesn't perform so they are aware of your disappointment."

Ok...

I bought one of your Ultra Light sleeping bags a couple of years back. Tried your bag out and froze in it. I don't know what the exact temperature was that night, but the water bottle in the tipi never froze so I figured it must not have gotten below 32 degrees. I was sleeping on a blue foam pad with a Therm-a-Rest UltraLite pad on top of that, so I should of had adequate insulation from the ground.

I called you and you told me the reason I was cold is that I didn't buy the correct size of bag. You were nice enough to take the bag back at a discount and sell me a larger bag which I did. I had the same thing happen again. I froze in it on the next trip. I don't know what the temperature was that night either, but again the water bottle never froze so I doubt it got below 32 degrees. I called you up about the situation, and you told me it was impossible for anybody to be cold in one of your bags if the outside temperature was within the bags range. You basically told me I was full of it.

Coincidently, my wife was with me on these trips and she slept very comfortably in her two pound, ladies North Face Cats Meow, 20 degree rated bag. Here I was packing a bag that weighed 2x as much and freezing!

To make a long story short I posted my experiences with your bags on this forum and a gentleman emailed me and offered to buy the bag. I sold it to him for 70% of what I paid for the bag originally.

I was disappointed to say the least. I accept fault for the first bag not working as advertised because I purchased it too small. For the second bag not to keep me warm at the rated temperature range was disgruntling. Not only had I lost close to $100 between selling the 2nd bag at a discount, getting a discount from you on the 1st as a trade in, and postage shipping the bags around, but I was without a viable bag going into the summer. I remedied that by purchasing a different bag from another manufacturer, and haven't been cold since.

Levi

04-09-2005, 04:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">western makes down bags which maybe good as far as down bags are concerned but can not be counted on anymore than any other down bag maker for ALL situations.
if his first company had to be sold because he couldn't make money at it why should his second company be any better. if i were to pick out a pack company I would chose kifaru as a usa producer and crossfire from australia as the most viable pack makers who have actually thoughout why they do as they do and have a product that can be depended uopn in the toughest of situations. i doubt that mr has done that.
as for cabela's they aren't as big in the hunting market as they are selling bad products. they seek out suppliers as they did wiggy's, i did not solicit them and i think they are a feather in my cap. [/QB]</div></div>Oh, I see... so even though WM's quality exceeds the parameter's of your post you can't say anything positive except that they're not "ideal for all situation's"... and I suppose your's are?

Your assumption's about Dana Gleason are ignorant to say the least... JUST LIKE PATRICK SMITH he sold Dana Design at a nice profit then, JUST LIKE PATRICK SMITH, decided to get back in the game. JUST LIKE PATRICK SMITH Dana build's excellent pack's for hunting, the military AND backpacking... what am I missing here? Have you ever even used a Mystery Ranch Pack?

USMA84DAB
04-09-2005, 07:18 PM
Dudes -

Is it that time of the month or what? Seems to me that the demeanor/tone of the posts is pretty darn nasty, and I don't see any calling for it to be that way. This isn't the "dogpile on Jerry" thread, so take a freaking chill pill!

I slept ON THE GROUND - no pad - in one of Wiggy's inner bags to the FTRRS or whatever the 2 bag set is - it DEFINITELY was below freezing - I slept in the open - no tent - stayed comfortable - his bags work for me -

Levi - dude - if his bags didn't work for you, just say so - I think every one here is big enough to understand that not everyone gets the same results from the same gear - your post just kinda came across a little bit as an attack vs. Wiggy ( at least in my perception) - maybe a little venting going on there, and with what you described, maybe understandable to some degree - however, it seems to me on this board that everyone pretty much plays well with others and most don't let it get into the snarling/attack mode. Not trying to be a jerk to you, but just trying to lay a friendly hand on the shoulder and say "breath a little"

Brad - dude, you need to breath ALOT! Cabela's sells crap? Winchester, Ruger, Filson, Danner, steiner, Leica, Leupold, Swarovski, Sig - Yes, they sell Coughlan's brand of camping garbage, but for someone that RV camps x1 per year, it makes a yuppie happy - your statement is just patently false and doesn't make sense to the point that one could suspect you don't have all of your faculties available -

Even if you weren't satisfied with what you got at Cabela's, they have a 100% return policy - I have even returned 5 year old boots that the wife decided didn't fit right and only wore twice. They couldn't even find the computer numbers for them to issue credit, but still did it with a wild card type SKU so that we got our money back. They don't carry the best of everything - Kifaru doesn't sell that way, G&amp;A Precision doesn't sell thru retailers, etc.. Your demeanor isn't what I have seen on this board since I joined - is there some other issue going on here? I am so shocked at your comparison/lumping Cabela's with China-Mart and that they sell crap that I am unable to comment further at the moment - that is like saying that the moon is made of green cheese - it just doesn't make sense! Maybe you could provide some specifics to support your thermonuclear blast against them?

Jerry - I have seen some pretty robust firefights involving you in the past. It seems to me that you often have very good points/info. Sometimes though, you are just very tough to handle - you just come off as abrasive. I am not trying to be ugly, not trying to attack you, just stating how it comes across to me. Feedback for you. I love your bags, wife loves the slippers I got her from you. I give repeat business to superior manufacturers, so you defintely have won me as a Client. For your sake, though, I wish you could move just a little bit towards Mr. Rogers - c'mon, just a little bit?! Cup of cocoa? Bunny foot slippers?

OK, time for group hug and a verse or two of Kumbaya - everybody, join in!

USMA84DAB

Kevin B
04-09-2005, 09:26 PM
Some observations. People don't approach bags from the same angle. Angles of approach are in oposition.

Down guys like: light weigth, better range of temps. New coatings making them safer than prior.

Synth guys like: wet performance, emergency and fudge factor. They allow for the weight.

MOST of the people on this board aren't going to use the gear in the utmost of aweful situations. They know their skills, their hunting areas, their gear etc. So in some respects we aren't addressing the same Q. What would you chose if in fact you were going to be LOST, in wet and freezing conditions for an extended period? Now I think most would answer that a certain way. I also think most recognize that their hunts only at the far end of the risk scale exposes them to that as a reality.

A good geometry proof has a set of givens that make the rest of the problem solvable. There is not a set of givens here that has been acepted, there isn't a contolled set of measurements, no controlled set of criteria by which success was measured. Guy at a time success is extoled.

If you hunt in the coastal areas, you are more inclined one way than guys hunting in high cold and dry. There's room for more than one solution to a given problem. Keep in mind that many of Wiggy's clients aren't weekend or weeklong bombers for a given elk hunt that can walk away from the ordeal after a day should it prove too much. So they are not talking about cutting off toothbrush handles and a pound or two plus or minus between synth and down means nothing.

After that, any one single person's experience is interesting but in and of itself valueless. There's too much to control for, for any one person's experience in a product to be telling. Hence the value of hearing lots and lots of experiences. The bell curve tells you that the middle is right and that extremes in result (measured or not) exist. Assuming of course that no one has hostility afore thought, assuming everyone has given an honest opinion. The variances of personal comfort ranges, personal subjective judgements on comfort and "heat" etc.. makes the mean judgement far more valuable than the extremes. The guys that think they can lay on an ice sheet with a half a wiggy's bag as a quilt or the guy that thinks a wiggy's antarctic in his living room won't cut it or is too heavy to haul down the stairs are equally unrepresentaive.

I guess the bottom line for Jerry is that the source of data that establishes his product as inherrent and measurably BETTER for the reasons including; his bags lack quilting, lack certain chopping and binding techniques is.... Jerry.(and like it or not, Jerry is a direct and unabashed defender of his product) Now, there's more than some anecdotal AND assumable evidence that what the man says is true. Take anecdotal stories on this MB and others and the military as sources with the assumption that neither would lie to support a product they can't profit from.

Anyhow, there's plenty of places where a good down bag is a solid choice for a guy who knows his gear and localle. There's plenty of places a synth bag is preferred. There's even uses in the "wrong" environment where a given individual can make more than adequate use of an unsuited set of gear based on experience.

There's never only one solution. There's not only one kind of automobile. Let alone off road ones. Indiviual taste aside from performance is relevant.

Last thought on Cabela's and Manufacturers. Distributors (like cabelas) have a responsibility to accurately describe gear. Cheap gear is suitable gear for many. It just shouldn't be sold as what it isn't. Manufacturers are responsible for the quality of the gear related to it's price. The maker bears the burden for making cheap gear that fails and Cabelas is at fault only if it sells cheap gear with false promotion. I know they sell their own crap, then both sides are their issue.

Anyhow, I was cool in wiggy's Kifaru Special (that's what it was called when I bought it). BUT, it's a 30/20 bag, I'm a cold sleeper and there were 2 inches of snow overnight. I wasn't freezing, but I was at the limit of the bag without additional clothing. I wasn't cold enough to start up the stove or get more clothing, just not perfect. It's not that cold here, but I may very well go outside and soak my special and me and get in it tomorrow night just to see what's the result. I'm no glutton for punishment though, so don't sit on bated breath.

04-09-2005, 09:45 PM
USM, I'll not waste my typing acumen on someone unable to read what was actually written previously... Dude.

Levi
04-10-2005, 02:41 AM
Fellas, my intent was not to start a Wiggy's war. My experience with his bags happened a couple years ago, and you'll notice in all of the threads concerning Wiggys bags over the last 18 months I've never brought my experiences up again. I posted my results initially on this forum, and that was that.

It wasn't until Jerry started this thread, and specifically the contents of paragraph four in his opening post which prompted me to post once again my experiences with his product. I was just following his recommendation!

Levi

Ralph
04-10-2005, 06:00 AM
Let's not swing the tarbrush too wide. Some of the Coughlin stuff is pretty good and reasonably priced. Items that come to mind are the flint striker, the repair kits, signal mirror, NATO wire saw, the folding plastic cups and the solid fuel stove.

A note about the cups - get the lighter color. I've accidently overfilled the darker colored cup at night with only firelight. You can see the fluid level in the lighter colored cup under those conditions.

Kevin B
04-10-2005, 07:09 AM
levi, your experience is as valid as anyone elses. Hope you understand that I was saying any individual case is just a data point in a field of such data. It might be telling or it may be one or the other end of experinece.

04-10-2005, 08:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Suppose the companies that offer products to people like yourselves; sportsman, backpackers, etc. put the same thought and quality into their products so they were built to perform in the most critical of circumstances if necessary and coulod provide proof of their nproducts ability to perform, wouldn't you buy these products?</div></div>Levi, you didn't start anything... JW started this thread with his typically self-serving, arrogant nonsense... I"M CALLING BS! The mountaineering/climbing/backpacking world has been amazingly blessed with some of the finest gear anywhere by some of the finest companies. Most of what is in Rescue/Survival realm is borrowed from the climbing/backpacking world, not the reverse. When I read stuff by this poser it's infuriating...

Kevin
04-10-2005, 09:10 AM
Yes, I deleted a post. Comments on how this board is moderated are not allowed. It degrades the board. If you want to B&amp;G, go elsewhere.

Ken
04-10-2005, 09:56 AM
Scott- Don't cry wolf when you can't stop yourself from bashing Jerry.

Personally I'd like to see some other manufacturers debate with Jerry. It would be interesting...

Smackdaddyj
04-10-2005, 09:56 AM
I am in complete agreement with USM...some people just need to take a deep breath. I always find it interesting what threads like this turn into. Some people just have low self esteem I guess and attacking someone else is a way to make them feel better. Classic.

Smackdaddyj

Levi
04-10-2005, 11:04 AM
Smackdaddyj said:

"Some people just have low self esteem I guess and attacking someone else is a way to make them feel better."

I take it your referring to the originator of this thread as that is where most of attacking comes from. If in doubt read some newsletters at <a href="http://www.wiggys.com" target="_blank">http://www.wiggys.com (http://www.wiggys.com)</a> , or reread the above comments the originator made concerning other manufacturers. A lot of attacking going on there I think you'd agree.

Ken said:

"Personally I'd like to see some other manufacturers debate with Jerry. It would be interesting... "

I agree Ken that would be something. Not sure what it would prove though? The basis for a board like this is that it allows us to learn from other peoples' experiences. Take from each other's unique perspectives, and leave what you don't like...simple as that.

I realize there are thousands of satisfied Wiggy customers which I take my hat off to Jerry for developing. Seriously, whether you like Jerry or don't, you have got to admit from an outsider's view he's built up a whale of a business. I respect him for that.

Let's not drift too far though from the contents of the original post, where in the thread starter referred to badgering manufacturers in which you were disappointed in there products. That's simply all I was doing. End of story.

Levi

Rusty Hook
04-10-2005, 12:21 PM
I think that complaining to the manufacturer, when you are unhappy with their product, is the most logical and productive place to start. They are the only ones who are in a position to do anything about the problem, and they should be given an opportunity to make it right. If they do nothing to rectify the problem, boards like this one are a good place to let that be known, both as a warning to others and to prompt manufacturers to rectify problems because the web gives wide audiance and publicizes problem manufacturers far beyond what we as individuals could otherwise accomplish...Rusty.

jerry wigutow
04-10-2005, 12:25 PM
brad,
seems you don't believe yourself. it makes zippo difference how well a down bag is made it has its limitations, and that is water. i need go no further as i know you understand that fact.

as for dana and patrick selling out and making profit, i am sure patrick did. as for dana, i am sure it was a lot less than he would have liked. at the time dana made the deal with what is now k-2 they also bought wilderness experience and they contacted me, they wanted to be in the sleeping bag business. they though i was in the bad financial shape the other two companies were in. that was not the case so i never even entered into negotiation. wildy was in terrible shape, i new this because i was selling them lamilite for jackets going into alaska. after k-2 bought them they tried to get them back into the sleeping bag business all to no avail. ultimately they were shut down. as for dana's company when i spoke to their head of accounting, a women, she told me it was nice to have an infusion of working capitol since the retailers they sold too made their own terms about when to pay and they had vendors to pay. apparently dana did not know how to say we will not ship you if you aren't current. after the sale of the company they had lots of money to produce product which did not sell as they thought and the two factories in montana were fazed out with production initially in mexico and then they went to asia.
patrick is a hunter and shortly after selling out he was written up in the denver papers about his new company making i believe fire arms. i think patrick saw the writing on the wall as a usa producer and got out when the getting was good, not because the company was in financial difficulty. i suspect patrick also realized it best to be a mail order company since i am sure he also new the bad pay of retailers. dana may or may not be a hunter but if mystery ranch is a mail order company it is because he was burned by retailers and is staying away,if not he will get burned again. in any event the backpacking market is less than 1 billion a year in the usa and the hunting market is 30 billion a year, where would you prefer to sell into?
i have never used a mr pack and will never use one since what i get from crossfire in my opinion is the best that is currently made in the world today.

levi
something is wrong with your story.
if you received a bag that was the wrong size a mistake on your part and you were told to return it you would have had to pay shipping only. if the correct size bag did not perform any better you would have been told to return it for a complete refund. that is and always has been the policy of wiggy's inc. as for the proper size ultra light bag not performing while in a tent on a ground pad with an ambient temperature of at least 32 degrees and the person being a healthy vs sick male i find being uncomfortable very hard to believe.

usm,
presenting facts that some chose to ignor does not make the messenger abrasive. A is A. facts are facts.

as for debating with other manufacturers, i relish the thought. i have spent more time in the outdoors in winter than any in the industry because i have sold insulation as a means of income and i needed to know how well my products performed versus my competition. in addition i have made products for people located in areas i have yet to experience and may never such as antarctica and have had to rely on their feed back with respect to all of the materials that a product was made from not just the insulation so i have acquired knowledge of the materials. some have worked better than others so i adopted them. i just do not put product on the market for the sake of having a product out there.
if you read what i wrote about mountain hardwear copying me, the bags are trash because they used a terrific material improperly and that tells you something about the product engineer. he doesn't give a damn about the customer! i doubt that you can ever get another maker to expose himself as i have and continue to do to the customers. bring it on.

Levi
04-10-2005, 01:50 PM
Jerry, please check your business records, you'll find nothing is wrong with my story. Your response to me on the forum is basically what you told me a couple years ago on the phone, which was that it was impossible to be cold in your bag at it's given temperature rating. So, I would pose to you the following question; Why should consumers badger manufacturers if they are disappointed with there products when they(the consumer) would probably just be discredited, or slandered (healthy vs sick) like you have just done to me?

Levi

jerry wigutow
04-10-2005, 03:36 PM
levi you should have received a refund if you were dissatified with my product, as that is my policy. if you did not return the product for a refund i question vaidity.
send me your complete name so i can check my records.

Levi
04-10-2005, 04:13 PM
Jerry, I sent information you requested via private message.

Levi

Ken
04-10-2005, 05:08 PM
Levi- I remember your story. Dave R. and I had some private e-mail where I brought up the fact that you were not satisfied with your bag recently...even though it was a year ago or so.

04-10-2005, 06:27 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i have never used a mr pack and will never use one</div></div>I know Dana's history all too well. That's not what this thread is about. It's about your assertion's in the first post which I'm calling BS... Also, I seriously doubt you've ever used a pack of any kind...

I'm done with you... later.

jerry wigutow
04-11-2005, 10:46 AM
levi,

you purchased an ultra light bag on january 02, 03. it was a regular regular.

on june 11, 03 we shipped you a regular wide body.

you were charged a small amount as per discussion with me because of how long you had kept the bag that did not perform for you.

if memory serves correct I asked why it took so long to get around to complaining. mute point, had you come back to me in a matter of a week or two I would have replaced the bag at no charge, but 6 months give me a break.

emmerson,
I may have stated a preference for a product not made by the site owner, but I think it disrespectfull to post the web site of the maker of the product as YOU have done that I prefer, nor would I say go to my web site to see them.

Levi
04-11-2005, 11:12 AM
Jerry, Thanks for checking your records.

Below are two quotes out of my original post. I never found, nor complained, or even hinted that your return policy was disappointing...read below what I originally posted.


"I accept fault for the first bag not working as advertised because I purchased it too small".

"You were nice enough to take the bag back at a discount and sell me a larger bag which I did."


I was disappointed in the second bag, and in the fact you basically told me I was full of it when I told you I froze in it (nice thing to insinuate to a customer, ehh).

I can see I've wasted my time "badgering" here in this thread.

Levi

Smackdaddyj
04-11-2005, 02:08 PM
Levi,

I was reffering to no one in particular and certainly not Jerry as I have and love several of his products. A man has the right to say whatever he wants on his own website.

Smackdaddyj

copper
04-12-2005, 07:45 AM
This probably isn't the thread but since it's here, I have to put up some food for thought to JW:

Bottom line, lamilite is lamilite. For all of it's pros and it's cons, it's still lamilite. For the most part, the people who don't care for it never will. And for the most part, the basis of this is related to the weight of the finished product. For the most part.

I have the mountain hunter bag. When I got that thing I was shocked at the low weight of the thing. I realize that it can't cut it against a superlight but it was never intended to. It's just another tool in the toolbox. But the mountain hunter is an amazing bag--and the low weight is impossible to dispute.

I think you should consider a mountain hunter line. The sweater, the vest, several bags, a couple parkas. I realize that it means manpower issues, templates, testing, machine setup expenses, etc. But I would bet you one of my humble paychecks that 3 things would occur:
1. The project would be profitable regardless of initial expenses.
2. Much of the "overheated" debates between down vs synthetic would go the way of the dodo as the weight comparison would finally be relatively over.
3. Even you, the resident expert on such matters as insulation, and moisture transfer would stand to learn things from the experiment. I just think there is something to this that would add to the whole lamilite experience.

Finally, regardless of price points, if looked into using some more clothing patterns; things with more pockets, shock cords, and do-dads you would have the market cornered. I know that you feel them unneeded and impractical but a lot of folks don't. It annoys me, I guess that they then go to marmot, arcteryx, etc. over a dumb pitzip or something when they could have had lamilite. Bottom line, I would love to see your company take an even bigger bite out of the oversees bigshots.

And as far as price points go, these guys (myself included) will spend $600 bucks on a pack, a grand on a shelter, and then go get another pack!

I think you should really give a long thought to a "mountain Hunter" line of stuff. But then again, I haven't innovated anything, and I don't own a killer business so I should shutup now! /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Ed T
04-20-2005, 09:03 AM
Levi,

I can't imagine why you bought an Ultralight bag in January and exchanged it in June. Hmmm! Six months went by. Could it be that because you live in Montana you would have really froze you butt off if you usede the bag before June! Glad you like your BA bag.

Ed T

Ed T
04-20-2005, 09:03 AM
Levi,

I can't imagine why you bought an Ultralight bag in January and exchanged it in June. Hmmm! Six months went by. Could it be that because you live in Montana you would have really froze you butt off if you usede the bag before June! Glad you like your BA bag.

Ed T

DJ
04-20-2005, 09:09 AM
Careful. Unless you have actually constructed a bag, you are unauthorized to offer an opinion about one. [Code of Bag Manufacturers, Page 94, Section 23, Paragraph 3.]

Smackdaddyj
04-20-2005, 11:05 AM
Copper--

I think you are on to something there. To add, there are also a lot of people in areas of the country that don't have harsh winters that would still be interested in high quality products like Wiggy's offers. However, they simply don't have a need for gear that is designed for harsh cold. I lived in GA for a while and did a lot of hunting while there. The winters were mild, but still cold in the morning and evening. A lighter weight, lesser insulated line of gear would be ideal for that climate. I am sure that many of the people that live in the colder climates would be interested in this line during the more mild months. Just my opinion on the matter.

Smackdaddyj

Ken
04-20-2005, 11:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Ed T:
Levi,

I can't imagine why you bought an Ultralight bag in January and exchanged it in June. Hmmm! Six months went by. Could it be that because you live in Montana you would have really froze you butt off if you usede the bag before June! Glad you like your BA bag.

Ed T </div></div>The funniest thing about this is Cabelas would have taken it back...

Levi
04-20-2005, 01:58 PM
Ed,

You hit the nail right on the head. I never bothered responding back to Jerry's last post when he told me to give him a break concerning the return time. Reckoned if he wasn't bright enough to figure it out, then it wasn't worth "badgering" him anymore.

Ken, I think your onto something here. For you guys who plan or purchasing a Wiggy's bag your best option may be to get it from Cabelas. That way if you return it you won't be slandered by Jerry, or have him tell you that your full of it (would also be better on your pocketbook too!).

Levi

Woods Walker
04-20-2005, 05:17 PM
Levi, Ed

I remember reading that post and thought the same thing. I was surprised you did not respond Levi. Now I know why.

dan garcia
04-21-2005, 12:11 AM
Just my .02, I have used MH &amp; TNF down bags for years (since my army/alaska days) and have used them along side severas people using wiggy's bags, for my money, unless I'm sea kayaking or river running I'm carrying the down, sorry jerry, you make a great bag, but it's nt my cup of tea, I like the down for it's compactness, lightweight, and it doesn't retain odor the way synthetics do,now for my alibi: I have used wiggy's bags on two shorter trips, and one was in central utah during a light snow storm (not sure which one, it was a loaner)and it kept me warm and dry (all while my leg was in a cast) while sleeping in an msr fyl/lean to type shelter. Bottom line: wiggy's bags= humvee, rugged indestructable toughness for the rough user (hunter), down=landrover, indestructable toughness for the experienced rambler/hiker who counts every freakin' ounce because no matter how you cut it 80-100 lbs. of high tech lightweight gear is still 80-100 lbs. on your back and it just never feels good. Interestingly, Chris Townsend, author of Advanced Backpacking (ragged mountain press) is a big advocate of down bags, he, arguably, has hiked more miles in more climes than mosr of us combined on this MB, just a thought, not saying down or lamalite is better than the other, just saying Jerry may be right in that he has the best synthetic fill yet made, but needs to consider that down is right for some users and not for others. My last long trip w/down was last summer in Denali, and it rained pretty heavy, but with a good .3 mil trash bag, and a eureka zeus 2, I was dry every night.

An mind is like a parachute and only works when it's open, there's a lot of negative words, posts on this MB concerning down, some men are ford men and some men are chevy men. Let's play nice and consider all ideas and maybe one day soon I'll be posting a thread about my new wiggy's bag. I do have a fellow scout leader that is a perfect candidate for a wiggy's bag, he's a big fella, 6'2" and about 48-50" chest, maybe I'll use him (as he's just returning to the great outdoors regularly) as my wiggy's "test pilot"!

dan garcia
04-21-2005, 12:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not one company had any interest, and I must emphasis not a single company had even the slightest interest in what I thought they should consider as an adjunct to their manufacturing methods. That has changed most recently, and for good reason. However, since they have no knowledge of polyester fiberfill construction for insulation purposes they will have problems.
I am the reason several companies are now actively making products with laminated fiberfill as their insulation. It has only taken the industry in general 30 plus years to finally understand that having a uniform insulation throughout a garment or sleeping bag renders the product more efficient than quilting the fiberfill. Had I not pioneered selling products made with Lamilite the first laminated fiberfill insulation ever and become successful, not a single company would do it. The problem they will have as I have previously referred to has to do with the fact that they are using chopped staple fiberfill as their insulating medium laminated to their lining material. The advantage that I have over all of them is my background of so many years ago experimenting with all of the fiberfill available at the time. They will ultimately have product failure.
The chopped staple fibers will, and the order of deterioration is unimportant, break down as follows; shred as a direct result of laundering, lose loft or go flat. </div></div>Jerry,
I have never read your website/newsletter until now, but a lot of what the other posters on this MB say about your products makes sense. That being: they are durable and warm. I quit buying snthetic bags for my personal use because I hate the "disposable' nature of the insultation. In fact (as an outdoor retailer) I would argue that most name brand gear is more highly disposable than it is durable, why would I as a manufacturer want to build a product that my customer will never or seldom need to replace. So, while I do find you very boastful in your postings and sometimes don't believe your claims, I'm going to give your bag(s) a try, besides any excuse to get some late season snow camping/ski touring in is a good one. More to follow after the tests. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

dan garcia
04-21-2005, 12:53 AM
IN reference to disposable outdoor products/ name brand outdoor gear; I wouldn't lump Kifaru into this catagory, just wanted Patrick to know that, I've beaten up my EMR pretty good and it's a winner and built to last, many other guys I work with have drug their EMR's too much harsher and remote locations than where I currently reside and the results are the same, Kifaru EMR winner by TKO vs. everything the other guys make, I have a few squid buddies who claim the same for their MR from dana, but I haven;t tried one yet, and probably won't, it looks like a great pack, but I like the modularity of the EMR and I can't stand thick, rigid waistbelts, some guys love them but none for me. happy trails.

Ken
04-21-2005, 09:13 AM
Levi- I was thinking back to some negative comments that Jerry had about Cabelas, yet they likely would have taken the bag back.

They have taken back raingear from me after two years! /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif

I was impressed.