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Smackdaddyj
02-06-2005, 06:50 AM
Anyone in the know--

I am going to be getting a paratipi in the near future and I have been looking at options (mainly adding up all the options so that I can budget), but I noticed that there is no liner for the paratipi (or am I just missing it?). My primary concern is the condesation/drippage in a humid environment...is this a concern with the para like it is for the larger tipis? Does kifaru make a liner for the paratipi, and if so, where can I find it? Last, but not least...Patrick, can you give me a pretty close estimate on what it would be for a blackout liner on the paratipi? I am very interested as I will be taking this bad boy overseas and don't want to give my position away if I need a little light in there.

Thanks in advance...

Smackdaddyj

ozarkrambler
02-06-2005, 01:23 PM
Smackdaddyj, when I talked to Patrick in Dec. he told me that a liner for the Paratipi is in the plan but it would be awhile before it was in production.
I to can't wait because in the areas I trek in humidity is very high and condensation is very much a problem ( at least for me). I used a Paratipi on an extensive ramble last year and I found it to be excellent, but there were times when I thought the liner would be much appreciated, no matter what it weighed. I deal with the moisture, and Wiggys products, for me, are a great help, but I like the dry climate of the west a lot better. YMMV... Dan

Patrick
02-06-2005, 06:34 PM
Gents--

A liner for the ParaTipi is indeed on the short list of designs needing my attention, and I hope to have one by mid-summer. As for blackout liners, I am going to have to start from scratch. For example, I don't know yet what thickness of black fabric is required to totally block light emmision; I doubt our Paraglider fabric is thick enough. In addition, I am pretty sure a lot of "overlap" is going to be needed to prohibit light leakage. Ergo, I'll speculate the weight of a blackout liner would possibly double the overall tent weight. Are you SURE you want this, Smackdaddyj? Anyone else want me to look into this? Let's get a count here. A consensus. In the interest of focusing design time where most productive. Thanks, guys.

anthracitic
02-06-2005, 07:06 PM
Why don't you get a Phantom light?
You won't need a blackout liner.

Smackdaddyj
02-07-2005, 04:43 AM
Patrick--
I would like to have one of these as it would kind of stink to not have any light in the tent without giving your position away. I am not interested in using white light, it would be red or possibly some other color, but I like red. If this is not something that is going to be doable while maintaining the advantages of the tipi, then I guess that I will have to look at working around the issue, as I really want to paratipi. I would also be interested in getting this liner for the 8 man that is in my future, but it would have to be somewhat light weight...I don't think doubling the weight of that tent would work. I have a silnylon poncho, I will play with that and let you know how it works as far as filtering light.

anthracitic--
What is a phantom light? If it is those blue/green lights, they are still going to give away a location if you turn them on. Anything that produces visible light is going to give your position away from what I have seen in the photos of these tipis at night. They are great shelters, but I am looking for something that will work for both tactical and recreational use. I don't use light a lot in a tactical environment (never to move around with), but it makes it a lot nicer to find things in your pack. And with the liner it allows us to do that without having to try to manipulate a poncho over our heads inside a tent at night in the dark. We would just set up the tent w/ liner, get inside with gear and close the door, now we are free to search our rucks.

Of course we would have security on the perimeter.

Smackdaddyj

anthracitic
02-07-2005, 06:35 AM
http://www.phantomlights.com/index.html

Sgathak
02-07-2005, 01:55 PM
Id bet one or two of those cheap space blankets and some duct tape could shield off, say, the back half of a paratipi and give you plenty of room for various jobs like map reading and so on... and wouldnt weigh more than a few oz's.

Smackdaddyj
02-07-2005, 07:59 PM
Good idea, and they would be cheap to replace. If Partick doesn't have something more permanent, I will have to experiment with those when I get my tipi. I checked out the phantom light website...does anyone know anything about how they look without NVGs. That is actually the least of my worries, there are not many of our enemies running around with NVGs, it is the visible light that is the threat. Look forward to hearing from someone in the know.

Smackdaddyj

anthracitic
02-07-2005, 08:38 PM
My Phantom went to Iraq. One might have a conversation with the manufacturer to get their views about light through a tent. It would seem to me that if the bad men are close enough to see a slight glimmer through the fabric, then they are
close enough to detect other signs of life. One indeed runs the risk of being shot at as a tent at night is a likely target. Hostiles outside the KZ are either going to equipped with NVG or else taking hopeful potshots.
Sgathak's notion of the space blankets has alot of merit. These could be rigged quite easily.
Cut to shape to follow the panels for the tent, assembled with o.d. 100mph tape, and suspended with coin sized superduper magnets, (sandwiching liner and nylon with magnets inside and out) could be the lightest possible solution.
$20.00 blackout liner-

Smackdaddyj
02-07-2005, 08:42 PM
Once again,

A great idea posted on the Kifaru website. I am going to have to give that a try. Patrick, you may now feel free to exert your efforts in developing gear we will all spend working countless overtime hours to afford. ;-)

Smackdaddyj

anthracitic
02-07-2005, 08:52 PM
If one assembled the liner as one piece, and made a proper job of it, their IR signature would drop to an undetectable level. Excavate sleeping areas to 10-12" and pitch the para low, and enjoy a bit more peace of mind eh?

Woods Walker
02-08-2005, 09:20 AM
Patrick- that liner Idea for the Paratipi sounds like a winner but I have a question. Do liners help hold more heat in a Tipi? A double wall would seem to provide a dead air space. However I don't know. You have been in a tipi with and with out a liner do you feel any difference in heat retention?

Patrick
02-09-2005, 01:46 PM
Woods Walker--

Yes, I calculate several degrees Farenheit extra warmth, given the same stove output. This was in an 8 man tipi if I remember correctly.

Ralph
02-12-2005, 08:09 AM
I think the rescue blanket liner idea could be the thing for a blackout liner with the additional advantage of increasing internal light as well as warmth due to the reflecting effect. If I had a tipi I would try it myself, and will certainly be interested in the result if anyone is going to try it. It would likely last for some time since the blanket material would be protected by the tent fabric. I've never tried the flammability of the material, but suspect it might melt if too close to the stovepipe.

Smackdaddyj
02-12-2005, 01:21 PM
Patrick--

Is there any chance that you guys could manufacture something like this and we could replace as needed. My concern is getting it to match the panels of the tipi and then actually attaching it to the tipi in a way that would work consistently. If you have any ideas, I am all ears.

Smackdaddyj

Patrick
02-14-2005, 03:07 PM
I think I may be a bit lost here. I've said we are going to produce a ParaTipi liner, but I've also said it won't be black-out worthy. Are you asking if I can produce a "rescue blanket" version, that WILL be black-out grade? The answer is I have no idea...I'm not even sure what y'all mean by "rescue blanket". Are you talking about the old Space Blanket material? If so, I doubt it can be cut and sewn, and I don't know that it will be completely opaque either. Certainly it gives me the willies around a red-hot stove. Need more info, gents.

Rusty Hook
02-14-2005, 03:13 PM
To all, hold a rescue blanket up to the light; you can see through it! Rusty.

rambler_wannabe
02-14-2005, 05:06 PM
what about Tyvek for a DIY blackout liner? Ditto on the space blanket and a red hot stove. I don't think a blackout liner and stove will easily mix--what good is it to have a blackout liner if you have fire shooting several feet out of the stack??

Smackdaddyj
02-14-2005, 06:30 PM
My idea with the blackout liner and stove being used together is that you are going to have to give up a little heat and keep the fire under wraps. As long as it is not a full moon, you will be ok with smoke, but the flame is a definate no go. I am sure there will be times where we will decide against the stove period, but it can get VERY cold up in the mnts. I am not saying I have all the answers, but if I get a liner, I want one that I can use the stove with, even if I only use them together when I am safe in CONUS and leave the stove behind for tactical use. There is still a lot of experiments to run with the setup and we will certainly put it to the test, running training ops against someone in the tent, or perhaps just having someone in there with the stove going and see what it looks/smells/feels like from the outside.

Then there is still the question of is it even feasible for Patrick to make these things. I am not sure, but I would imagine that if blackout liners were available for all tents, that you would have a lot more military orders from a TOC point of veiw. I know that I would have never been able to get my commander to buy anything that didn't have a blackout capability (whether for sleeping or TOC use). Light discipline is heavily stressed at all times.

I checked out the Phantom light option and I will be getting one of those for testing very soon as well. I like that you can't see it with NVGs, but I have never seen Afganis or Iraqis carrying around NVGs. I really want to know what it looks like with the naked eye. Can it be dimmed significantly enough that you can use it without being spotted from say 10+ meters away? I don't know, but we will soon see.

I really appreciate the interest and help from you guys, and your interest in always trying to better your product Patrick. I don't know what the answer is to all of this, but I am sure that you will figure out something.

This is really a top notch group of men (and a few women) here.

Smackdaddyj

Ralph
02-14-2005, 07:06 PM
The way I term them is: the rescue blanket is the light single layer foil mylar thing, the space blanket the heavier fiber-reinforced version.

Some rescue blankets are available with color on one side, I have a couple in OD with shiny back.

I'll bring a couple of blankets to the east coast rondy and we can try them (better than speculating). Sometimes you can see thru something that, in layers, become opaque. Be an interesting experiment, anyhow.

I suspect the shiny layer will reflect the light rather than pass it - we are not talking 100K candlepower light here, just dim flashlight illumination - but we will see.

Sgathak
02-14-2005, 10:48 PM
I never pictured the "space liner" being used with a stove... thats kind of a scary proposition Id think. Using a stove with that set up would probably bake you out as well.

I also dont think it would be a likely production item... just cut the panels from "rescue blanket" and use duct tape to connect them (think seam tape).

As Ralph said, a shiney liner should reflect a significant portion of the light, and Im thinking any tactical use would be with red or blue light to preserve night vision.

Ralph
02-15-2005, 05:23 AM
As written above, the stove might not be the best idea for tactical use. On the other hand, with a small tent like the Paratipi lined with reflector it may not be necessary. I remember being half out of my sleeping bag, reading to the light of a candle lantern in sub-freezing temperatures. That little lantern kicked out enough heat to be comfortable. A reflector lining would, I imagine, multiply the effect.