View Full Version : The Kifaru type Wiggy's Sleeping Bag
04-23-2004, 12:45 PM
For those of you who did not follow over here from the previous thread about down vs. synthetic sleeping bags, let me explain my goal. It appears there are a number of us that appreciate Wiggy's sleeping bags and especially the lamolite insulation, but would like something a bit different than the existing choices available.
I have not discussed the idea of designing a new sleeping bag with Wiggy, so I have no idea if it is possible that anything will come of this effort but here are a few possible outcomes:
(1)We will design something (perhaps with Wiggy's input) that is very doable and Wiggy will create a new model in his sleeping bag line or a even whole new line of sleeping bags that we will all enjoy.
(2) We will design something doable only on a limited run and Wiggy will create a limited run of sleeping bags for anyone who wants in on it.
(3) We will design something doable only on a custom basis and a few of us may place custom orders to Wiggy's for what we desire. (Wiggy already accepts custom orders, but I believe there is an additional fee.) or
(4) We will design something that can not possibly be manufactured or at least not at any reasonable cost, and Wiggy can tell us sorry folks can't do it.
So, let's here from everyone what would you like? Here's my opinion to get us started:
I hanker for lighter weight materials in a Wiggy's bag. Perhaps a lamolite bag with a lining and cover made of lighter weight nylon or other fabric and lighter weight zippers too. Whatever the folks at Western Mountaneering and Mountainsmith are using on their lightest bags is a good place to start. I also like Ken's suggestion that the overbag needs no zipper at all. Or perhaps a few snaps down the center to allow the collar to open a bit for venting. In either case it could be made lighter and could make a great survival bag for when I don't plan on staying out but if it's light enough, I would be willing to put it in my pack just in case. As for the inner bag, (the main bag) I would like lightweight materials and a two way center zip from chin to crotch. I like center zips becuase they vent where you need them to, they drape better than side zips, and even if the draft tube allows a cold spot I can turn over on either side so one side doesn't get warmer or colder than the other. And one more thing, I would like the opening in the hood to jut out away from my face a bit, sort of like a snorkel parka hood. I don't like the feeling that a hood is pulled tight around my face and if it's not tight I get cold from the dead air space around my haed and neck. GoLite has a center zip bag something like this, but it's not made of lamolite and it's not really made of the lightest weight materials, despite the name.
Okay that's my ideas, lets here yours.
Knock off the Western Mountaineering "Badger" 66" shoulder x 40" foot girth. 6' length is 2 lb. 5 oz. Rated @ 20 deg. (in my experience WM is conservatively rated)
This is a good base temp with enough room inside for you to wear your down or synthetic jacket if it gets really cold. (Ought to get into single digits pretty easy)
There's my wish list
I vote for a 48" elephant's foot to go with my antarctic parka. Same fill as my Ultima Thule.
Other systems are redundant if you have a decent parka.
Nunatak makes them, but of course in down, not synthetic.
04-23-2004, 04:19 PM
I find some bags rated comfortable to 20*. others seem to be rated as toasty to 20*. Others are rated as good down to 20*. These are really different things. not to mention my wife and I could climb into identical rated bags, each properly sized for our builds, and she will freeze while I roast.
So lets cut to the chase: sleeping bag ratings should be to show the lowest termperature inside a tent, or outide in the open, at which you can sleep OK, with maybe a few times getting too cold and need to refasten or reposition hood etc.
I for one, do not want to lug around a sleeping bag that is toasty to -20* cause unless its -20* all the time its way to heavy and way too warm.
And the one time I was really underprepared: -20* in a +20 rated bag, yeah it was cold, but I did not freeze. Although the water bottle in my jacket did, even though it was used as a pillow.
So what are the ratings generally really meaning?
comfortable to 20? wont sleep but wont freeze to death at 20? toasty as a kitten to 20? warm for women at 20? warm if you wear longjohns adn sox at 20?
Let us use a revised or dual rating system: comfortable range of temperature: good for lows inthe range of -10 to 30*, or 0* to 40 or whatever
04-23-2004, 05:48 PM
http://www.featheredfriends.com/ProductD...Name=Great%20Au (http://www.featheredfriends.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productId=86&CatId=1&ProductNa me=Great%20Au)
I wasn't able to cut and paste the link for Big Agnes in the way that I wanted to , but they make an over bag called the Cross Mountain that is a synthetic fill. When used with a down liner, bag moisture passes through the down and condenses in the synthetic insulation where it is much faster to dry. So to me , the ideal bag would be a synthetic filled over bag that has the arms of the first bag, the foot that opens up, the latest highly water resistant breathable laminate, along with an internal compartment for the sleeping pad rather than insulation in the bottom. I would like the pillow holder that Big Agness offers. Most of all I would like it to be MUCH less expensive than the bag Nunatak offers... 2nd w
04-23-2004, 06:47 PM
I have an early version of the "Great Auk", it is 15 yrs. old and going strong. I use it with a Bibler Solo Dome and Syltarp from Integral Designs to make a camp that is comfy down to +20F, this with a light ThermaRest. It is a tremendous rig for summer flyfishing trips to isolated lakes that take two 12 hour days to hike into and out of.
It's a bit light for fall hunting trips here in B.C., but, I made it do a couple of years ago when my top-end winter bag was stolen. I will say that absolutely nobody makes a beter bag than F.F. and they have been super nice to deal with.
04-23-2004, 07:50 PM
I like the idea of a center zip, a different hood, and a 20 degree rating, if my name aint mud with Wiggy! I calmed down a bit from my ealier frustrated rant about fit. A few friends that have different sleeping styles didn't seem to mind it as much as me, but agreed with the points and would likely prefer what you mention here. Everyone thought the draft tube was too bulky and the hood funky. I know zero about textiles, but other hoods have some seams radiating around the head, and we hypothesized that this would afford better fabric mobility and fit.
Pertex is often used now as a shell fabric. I like the idea of that Golite that has the center zip and some kind of resealable foot vent that you can poke in and out of at will without awkward midnight adjustments. Velcro? Anyone seen it? I think it's down though.
I found a tag off of my Mountainsmith Vision:
"Newly developed high tenacity polyamide 15 denier creates the lightest weight downproof fabric. 0.8 oz per square yard. Dimension Polyant Sailcloth technology. Airnet."
I think that some of the Pertex fabrics are almost as light given the total weight of the Marmot bags. Considering that Wiggy stated his fabric is 2 oz per square yard, with these new fabrics one could save weight vs the older 1.9 oz ripstop nylon. (10 yards per bag= 20 ounces vs 8 ounces)
This is wispy fabric though- you can see dark feathers through it. So far it is holding up and breathes well, but I have been careful with it.
04-23-2004, 09:45 PM
I dont have much input insofar as design is concerned... a few preferences but nothing more.
However I would like to say that I am a bit annoyed with the fact that Wiggys has the market cornered on what is quite possibly the best insulation in the world, but in order to get it you have to "play by Wiggys rules".
His designs are bulky and heavy. They are inelegant and cumbersome. They were designed for military and "heavy hunters" mostly so far as I can tell and leave those of us who prefer to go in as light as possible with the option of using either inferior synthetics, running the risks in using down, or just plain ol' suffering.
Id like to see a lightweight, or even ultralight, sleeping bag being produced in lamalite... GoLite, WM, Mountainsmith, and others all have good *designs* for bags. Materials can had as light as 1.1oz ripstop (though I prefer a slightly heaveier weight on the bottom and in the inside foot area). A "sleeve" overbag or one with a 1/2 zip would be nice as well.. For sport or Ultralight uses, there are few reasons I can name for needing a full length zipper, and a speedy egress isnt really one of them.
I think this is a niche that is fairly untapped, but unfortunatly from the things Wiggy has said here, I think its a niche that will remain untapped because there seems to definatly be an air of "Im right and your wrong" on what makes for a good bag. Of course thats just my perception and could be wrong (I hope so).
04-24-2004, 07:42 AM
Good input guys. I have talked with Jerry (Wiggy)over the phone a time or two in the past, and while he may be oppinionated about sleeping bags and textiles, I think he is as reasonable as the next guy, (okay I'm not very reasonable either.)Anyway, it's fine with me that he has strong opinions, because he does back-up his claims with real life examples and a quality product.
What I would like to have happen is for Jerry to see that it would be profitable for him to create a true lightweight mountaineering series of sleeping bags. I believe there are both existing customers who would trade-up as well as new customers who would try a Wiggy's bag if it was built with lighter weight materials. So lets keep the ideas and opinions coming, even if it's just to say dittos.
Three questions: (1) How many of you would likely purchase a new sleeping bag from Wiggy's if it used lighter weight materials? (2)How many of you would like a center zip? and (3) What temperature rating would you like it to have? (Remember: Wiggy's bags are very conservatively rated and there is always the option of an overbag with Wiggy's)
Let's get a little more opinoin here and then we'll contact Wiggy to take a look at this thread to get his input. Kevin, perhaps you will want to get involved since you seem to know Jerry a bit?
04-24-2004, 08:02 AM
Guys, I've met him a couple of times, but he's an open book. Call the business and he answers. You go do what you want, I'm happy with the standard bags for now.
04-24-2004, 08:03 AM
Oops. Looks like things are still happening with this topic on the other thread, including some input from Jerry. That's okay, keep your opinions coming and respond to the questions, then we'll get Wiggy over here too.
04-24-2004, 09:08 AM
Designs of sleeping bags are not bulkyor heavy. Designs are nothing more than shapes. The design of the basic Wiggy mummy bag happens to be taken directly from a Camp 7 model. So I can't take credit for the shape of my bags. See my post on synthetic vs down thread.
If you want to be annoyed at something or persons try the entire sleeping bag industry and the so called designers of sleeping bags. When I offered my insulation to them they blatantly refused to even aquire samples. Their thinking or lack thereof was how a bag would look if used as I suggested. NONE QUILTED. Therefore,if as you say "possibly the worlds finest insulation,Lamilite' is relegated to me it is because if I were to put it on the market I would have to be come the manufacturer.
Lets talk about who bought my bags when I started, backpackers primarily, then hunters and eventually the military. At this time I sell more hunters than any other brand, certainly I am the prime supplier to our military which should make you happy because they get the best and most durable sleeping bag in the world which may mean less of our tax dollars go for replacement sleeping bags, an a situation that I am very proud of. I too served and have some idea of what our troops are facing and support them completely. So don't ever again mention the military in a negative manner to me.
As for your suggestion noting what other companies do and how some of what they do can be applied to a bag, I'll be happy to do all of those things for you, but the cost may blow you away, and in my educated opinion after all is said and done you would probably have wasted money.
I make an elephant foot when ever I get an order, so call me.
If you put a down bag in a synthetic you will have a significant condensation problem far worse than not have the synthetic over bag. I don't believe the company maketing such na concept has been around long enough to remember other companies who attempted such products and they failed. The pad in the bottom business is also ma failure, most every company that has ever made sleeping bags has tried it, and where is it today, just a good thought but not practical.
Get a hold of a squre yard of the most promonent of the Pertex brand of fabric used by the companies who use there materials and weigh it. Pertex is a company name and brand name for a whole line of fabrics. Anyway what you will find is that almost all of the fabics the sell to sleeping bag companies is 1.5 ounces at minimum and heavier, most being heavier. So much for saving as much weight as you thought.
04-24-2004, 10:07 AM
Ok Jerry, Then make me this one http://www.nunatakusa.com/Sleeping_Bag_Raku.htm
with your insulation. Cost & weight for a 20 degree long? 2nd w
04-24-2004, 02:54 PM
which size, s-m-l?
cost will be $350.00
What color; black,purple,od, or royal blue?
04-24-2004, 03:14 PM
Jerry, It would be a large. What would the weight Be? 2nd wind
04-24-2004, 03:58 PM
Jerry, I wasnt nessesarily snarking AT you... just at the situation. Fact is, if you want lamilite, your the one to go too... and the design you use for your bag, or the materials, or whatever it is that is doing it makes the bags you make big and bulky. Heres another fact. One of your ags saved my life once, So Im not trying to be a pain in your butt, I appreciate your product because I know it works. Just adding my voice to the choir that we would like to see a lightweight bag from you. You say you can do it, and I think that you would get a TON of buyers on it.
3rd fact, if you could make a lamilite version of the nunatak raku, in a truely comparable weight class in a 20deg bag... especially for $350... people will beat down your door. As it is, I know people that are trying to figure out how to finance a down raku. Granted, my pockets are shallow enough Id have to finance a $350 bag... but if its made by Wiggys, I know it would be worth it at least.
BTW, I went looking for info on lamilite on your site and couldnt find it, was I missing the info or is there not a lot outlining the build of lamilite and what makes it different?
04-25-2004, 08:33 AM
I will not know the weight until it is made.
The deal is you pay up front and if the weight isn't as close as you want, you get a refund.
You will have to call me, as I do have to discuss it with you.
I readily admit my bags a larger than any other makers, and yes they are bulkier because I use more insulation. That is why your experience with one was positive. If I reduce the amount of Lamilite that I put in each model the temperature rating will be higher. That is a fact many of you can't quite grasp. As for an explanation of Lamilite, I think it is very complete in "About Wiggy Products" which is what appears on the screen when you click on catalog. If it leaves something out call me and I'll answer the question.
04-25-2004, 08:58 AM
I was showing my wife what you wanted and I realized a few years ago I received an order from a unit at FT. Lewis, WA. for about 110 of these creatures. Only they wanted a Lamilite version of a Marmot model. The Marmot model had primaloft and they didn't trust the stuff, with good reason.
04-25-2004, 09:15 AM
Wiggy, First, I would like to extend my personal thanks to you for coming on the forum and assisting us with your knowledge. I first saw a picture of your double bag setup in a Cabela's catalogue about three years ago and my first impression was--that is what I need!!!
I have spoken with your Canadian licencee concerning the purchase of one and will be buying one as I re-build my worn-out equipment inventory, something I have to do every few years.
I am also keenly interested in a lighter Wiggy's, good to about 15* because that is where much of my hunting takes place-as it does with a lot of the guys. So, keep us posted concerning whatever you do, I wish more gear builders would come aboard and post replies as honestly as you do.
I would ask, what is wrong with Primaloft and why is Lamilite superior? If, you have already given this info., please post a link so I can obtain it; I do not want to waste your time, but, I am sincerely interested as I really need another emergency bag.
04-25-2004, 09:28 AM
Actually Jerry, I think we DO all grasp that lighter insulation means less of a temp rating. We arnt the idiots you seem to imply. That, I think, is why so many of us are looking at your claims of being able to make a bag just as light as an ultralight bag with a bit of puzzlement.
So, in your last post you admit that you bags ARE bulkier, thats fine. Thats what your product is, and I dont get why you go off the deep end trying to argue that products quality. For what it is, it is the best of the bunch. No one is argueing that. However your current product IS big and bulky (by your own statement) and does not fit with some people need for a ligghtweight and compressible bag, and Im flabbergasted as to the need to insult anyone who should be so foolish as to doubt you.
Further, I was going to let it slide but its been eatting at me so here goes. Im not sure where you got the notion that I ever mentioned the military in a "negative fashion" but I would advise that before you speak, you think, because that assumption is assanine. Not only that, It is insulting. Especially considering that you have NO IDEA of who I am, what I do, or what my background is. You have no concept of how or in what ways I support this nations military, nor do you have the slightest glimmer of a reckoning as to what that support means to me. Given your rant Im going to assume that your rather proud of your products military association, and therefore Im not sure why you felt so insulted at your products mention is such capacity. So, given that you have no idea of who I am, and I have no idea where you even got the shimmer of a thought I was in some manner speaking poorly about the United States Military we can make a deal - I wont "ever again mention the military in a negative manner" to you, if youll keep your knee from jerking so hard that it induces you into reading things that arnt there. Deal?
04-25-2004, 10:55 AM
IMHO Sgathak is right Jerry. I believe you owe this board an apologie. If you will be nice you can sell alot more gear. Ask Patrick... 2nd wind
I guess maybe I also detect a little 'tude from Jerry. In his defense, he certainly seems to know his subject and believe his products are the best going. I have no problem with that...(Heck I think my Guacamole is the best thing this side of Mars)
But the question is....can a lamilite bag match (or nearly) a down bag in weight. My target is a 20* bag in a medium mummy cut, to fit 6' and @ 2lb.6oz. (max) My target models are the WM "Badger" and the BA "Zirkel". Both of those fit my target. FWIW BA also has a 20* PG model @ 2lb. 13oz.
In looking at Jerry's website, I see his UL model is 20* @ 3lb.8oz. I'm not sure how he can hit the weights of those down models, but if he can...I'm buying.
I'll keep ya'll posted.
04-25-2004, 12:29 PM
I found this Integral Designs bag on ID's website. I'm not familiar with their bags, but this one looks pretty good too. Does anyone out there have one of these?
Renaissance 23 F / -5 C 2.75 lbs. / 1.2 kg 10" by 10" regular - 78" (198 cm)
up to 5'11" Hip
reg - 56" (143 cm)
long - 60" (152 cm)
04-25-2004, 03:44 PM
If you go into the archives of my newsletters you will find the explanation of how primaloft came into existance, at the expense of US taxpayers, $700,000.00. In short it is a chopped staple fiberfill which has been in existance since 1960 and giving it a fancy name doesn't make it a good product. Your Canadian company integral designs was my first licensee but since they were purchased by adventure tech they changed to primaloft since adventure tech want me to give him $15,000.00 which is what the primaloft people did. Trust me it is garbage just like the british companies product.
I may have been a little quick but many people who reference my suppling the military from the backpacking set think that once a human joins the service they change to something else. So I am on occasion touchy. Hell you could have been special forces for all I know, I doubt it since if you were you would still be using the Wiggy bags issued you. (JUST KIDDING)
I am very suspect that the bags from other companies perform as they state based on the enormous number of calls I have received over the years from people tell ing me this brand or that brand didn't perfom as stated. Now keep in mind what I have said, if I make a Lamilite bag for a specific temperature the "same dimentions" as another company the weight will be very close, almost equal. The reference to my Ultra Light @ 3.8 pounds is a 80 inch long x 34 inch wide bag and the long and wide is 90 x 34 and it is 4 1/4 pounds. Ask F.F or WM to make a down bag equal in size and temperture rating to mine
and see what theirs weights. Adding lenght adds baffels which need to be filled and adding width means that each existing baffel needs more down. Hence an increase in total weight, probably equal to mine. Now I understand that everybody wants the lightest bag for a given temperature even hunters, so I have tried to do the best for all. However, I have also accomodated thousands in total over the years with special bags, and in all cases when the bags are cut to an other companies size the weight is similar.
Call me with thye exact size you want and I'll tell you how close I can come.
have a good rest of Sunday.
04-27-2004, 07:22 AM
Get a hold of a squre yard of the most promonent of the Pertex brand of fabric used by the companies who use there materials and weigh it. Pertex is a company name and brand name for a whole line of fabrics. Anyway what you will find is that almost all of the fabics the sell to sleeping bag companies is 1.5 ounces at minimum and heavier, most being heavier. So much for saving as much weight as you thought.
Well when I posted that I was holding in my hand a sleeping bag that used 0.8 ounce weight fabric, so I don't know what you are getting at. If you're not willing to use it that's fine, you are a free man, but I was pointing out that it exists.
I realize pertex is a brand, and didn't get specific since there are many varieties, the most common of which I have seen used in sleeping bags is....Pertex Quantum at 0.9 ounces. This is not 1.5 ounces, this is 0.9 ounces.
Here is info on it from the feathered friends site:
"In our quest to push the envelope of textile technology further, combined with our solution driven approach to product development, we have launched Pertex Quantum®.
Pertex Quantum® is one of the lightest weight fabrics we offer. It is also the newest of our fabric selection, ideal for situations where high water resistance isn't as important as breath ability or weight savings. For greater water resistance or durability, we suggest Epic by Nextec.
Pertex Quantum® has been engineered to meet the specific requirements of manufacturers of lightweight, insulated, equipment and apparel. Using the finest yarns available to us with the maximum thread count, we have created the lightest Pertex® ever at 30g/m2 (0.9oz/yd2)."
Here is the pertex award from your favorite people at backpacker:
Here is product info on Pertex Quantum from pertex.com
Epic from Nextec would be a good solution for your market, but is a tad heavier- not sure how much. It is used in the new military softshell clothing with rave reviews.
So it's out there, and would help you match the weight of competitor bags, which is a large component of why this thread exists. You may be unwilling to trust it as far as durability, but that's a different issue.
04-27-2004, 09:26 AM
I looked the the Pertex site. The 30 denier material that they produce is in my opinion unaccetable for use a sleeping bag lining or shell material.
It doesn't have enough strength, is very tightly woven so its vapor permeability is compromised and it will not retain the heat that it receives from the bag occupant for very long.
The material I use; 70 denier single ply taffeta is far stronger, is not as tightly woven so its vapor permeability is exceptional and it has proven itself to heat up more quickly and retain that heat far longer than any other material used for the shell and lining of sleeping bags.
I should like to point something out to you; for all the years I have been involved in the sleeping bag industry I have seen companies change insulations, shell and lining materials and zippers for no particular reason other than the new company giving out more advertising dollars than the old company.
I for one have never used any supplier to contribute to my advertising, and as you probably can surmise I don't care what some other sleeping bag marketing company does, (I am the only manufacturer left in the country, I don't give much thought to WM,FF, NUNATAK, as I produce more in a week than they produce combined in a year) all the other brands are made in Chinese factories owned by Chinese people or the government.
I have not changed my insulation, fabrics or zipper since inception because they work.
I had an extensive conversation with Wiggy yesterday and ordered a bag. It will be based upon his UL model but with a slightly different shape and 1/2 thickness insulation on the bottom. I agree with PP that the use of a fabric that is in the ~~ 1.0 oz/yd range could get these synthetic bags into the true UL range. OTH I understand the reluctance of a manufacturer to go too far outside his proven formula due to material inventory, production expedients etc.
So.......knowing my preference for absolute minimalist stuff, some might wonder...why did I do it???
First, I will be retaining a minimalist down bag for shorter trips in warm friendly weather. (Down to say 30* or so)
I do believe that synthetics offer a margin of safety for a soloist on a longer trip with weather in the offing. Note that I did not say this is a necessity, simply a margin of safety like the back up flashlight, second stash of fire starter, and six extra cartridges.
Third, Jerry says he can hit 2lb. 8oz for the 20* bag in the shape I want. Given that BA has a 20* PG bag @ 2 lb. 11 oz, I think he can do it. (he'll be using less fabric). In any case, he has confidently offered the right of refusal if he misses the target weight. This compares well with the two leading down candidates from WM and BA. (They are ~~ 2 lb 4oz) I am willing to accept the 4 to maybe even 6 oz. increase in weight.
If it goes over that.....different story. In the unlikely event that I do choose to refuse the finished product, I will offer to compensate him for his efforts as I don't want to be unfair (given that this is experiment). For me this is not as much about what it costs, as it is to get exactly the right thing.
If Jerry were to use the UL fabrics of some sort, he could get his creations into true UL territory. Eventually, he might have to consider it in order to tap into the growing UL trend. Nevertheless, I'm willing to make the compromise (as long as he hits the spec'd weight) as I do think that his insulation material has some benefits that others lack.
We shall see in 2 weeks or so.
04-27-2004, 10:39 AM
Cool. I'll check your results.
JF- It's awfully hard to beat that kind of service now isn't it?? /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif I'll be interested to hear about your results as well...
04-27-2004, 01:52 PM
One of the wonders of insulations like Lamilite is that it is very stable. It can have holes and tears all over it's "shell" and still stay put, and perform. Therefore ANY shell that holds it in basic configuration ought to do--if your objective is lightest-possible. The Lamilite will still do it's thing. Seems to me "bullet-proof" still applies too. Unless you get all freaked out by appearances. Not me. I too want the absolute lightest Lamilight bag Jerry can concoct. That includes a "lesser" zipper (I'll be careful). I'm watching closely.
04-27-2004, 02:15 PM
suppose I use chesse cloth, it would be pretty light wouldn't it? However, durability is a major factor for me. I give a life time guarantee and if my shell fabric deteriorates I will have to replace bags. If I don't change the shell fabric to a better fabric I will go the way of Snowlion. They made quilted Polar Guard bags that had a collapsing problem and didn't change their construction method so they are now out of business. I don't care to follow in their foot steps.
04-27-2004, 02:34 PM
This is a great project. I'm not convinced I'm going to go beyond a standard wiggy's bag because I'm the guy bulletproof stuff is made for, but I sure like what I see here, on both sides.
I haven't yet used my hunter bag, but I will tell you, the sweater and Antarctic parka are everything he says they are.
Jerry- Would it be reasonable for you to put into production a standard sized 40 deg mummy bag? Not an oversized bag like they Overbag, but sized like your other bags. Here's why I ask. From re-reading your website and comparing your bags to other manufacturers with regards to weight, I would think it's safe to say that your bags will be slightly warmer than similarly rated competitors, right? And since the Overbag is built larger for obvious reasons, a "normal" sized 40 deg. bag built to your standards would help satisfy the weight conscious and still be Wiggy tough, allowing for you gaurantee. I'm guessing a long/wide version of this would go less than 2lbs 8 oz., and would be nearly as warm as most 20 deg. bags. What are your thoughts?
04-27-2004, 05:57 PM
So what would it take to build a few custom bags using pertex quantum, or some other ultralight material of 1 0z/yd2 or less and say a short #5 zipper? I bet I can find 5 of us who want lamolite bags made that way, and we won't hold you to your lifetime guarentee. So what do you say, if I can get 5 orders (possibly including JF's if it's not too late) will you give it a try?
04-27-2004, 06:25 PM
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of mosquito netting <grin>. I'm only half kidding. Tell you what, I won't hold you to ANY guarantee whatsoever, and I'll do all the testing--I'm out a LOT. Use the lightest shell material you can get the lamination to work on. Smaller zip. I'll buy it. I agree with these guys who are dedicated lightweight backpack hunters, but not active soldiers. Unlike packs and tents which CANNOT fail under the harsh conditions of weight/weather, a sleeping bag can be treated with some care in the environment we are speaking to here. The bag is NOT overtly exposed to the unsheltered environment, or to tanks and Hummers in combat conditions. If these guys can function for years with a dainty FF bag they can handle the sort of Wiggy's bag we're talking about. And it would still be far tougher than any down bag ever built--because of that stable insulation. I know this all sounds like heresy to you, but you should consider letting these ruffians push you toward supplying what they want. They WILL buy it, as testified by the 6 man tipi they finally beat me into submission on, which we're selling very satisfactorily. It actually turned out to fill a needed niche. Which is what this is all about--a lightweight Wiggy's; Ultralight if you actually can pull that off. Don't compromise the insulation, just the shell. Alter the guarantee to the extent that if we rip the shell we're on our own...we'll just patch it and keep going. Easy to do because the good old Lamalight isn't going to spill out all over the place. Huge benefit over down. I'm chiming in with these guys because I want one too. IF you can get it's weight really competitive with down, or close, you'll sell 'em. I do hope you'll consider these words in the best terms, because they're meant that way. (If you call the bags Kifaru Specials, or somesuch, I'll be treating you to elk tenderloins and the wine of your choice!) Have fun!
You can add me to the list.
04-27-2004, 07:03 PM
Agreed. I was about to post something along those lines too. No need to debate about what is tough enough or ideal for everybody, or we'll end up back at the beginning with the current offering, which is popular but not just right for some.
A custom bag comes as is with no return and no warranty. We trust that the stitching and such will be fine, and if we requested a lighter fabric, then it's our responsibility to patch it. The core element that makes it Wiggys and desirable is the lamilite insulation.
I can see a problem in that Wiggy will probably not want to deal with the expense and trouble of buying rolls of other fabrics to check them out. If everyone agreed on one, then we could pool funds to ship him the fabric, or he could buy it based on pre orders. I expect a sleeping bag mfg can obtain the stuff cheaper than I could, and I don't really want a 10 yard roll. (then again that's how I got a digital camo Pointman...)
I don't think you could find a better objective experienced outdoor tester than Patrick. That's a great idea.
Patrick: As an aside, I will be coming to Ft Collins for 5 weeks of training and would like to stop by your place sometime, but it might be a weekend. Could that work?
I must say that it is pretty admirable that a gear mfg would devote this time and effort to accommodate minority opinions with custom stuff, both Wiggys and Kifaru. Most of the others couldn't if they wanted to- it's all being made in Asia. Thanks guys!
I've just been lurking on this post, but I'm in if a bag can be made that fits the bill these guys are talking about.
Patrick the missing link in the big three of equipment that you sell is a sleeping bag. How about a Kifaru branded bag along these lines that doesn't have to meet the Wiggy's bombproof requirement because it's not Wiggy's branded?
Kifaru's LightHunter Pertex shelled, Lamilite bags for backpacking hunters. A 0 degree 3 pound and 20 degree 2.5 pound synthetic bag would definitely fit in with your ultralight tipis and as evidenced here, there is definitely interest from your existing customers.
I know Wiggy's built some bags for Molehill, so perhaps a joint venture is possible? Just a thought that might address Jerry's concern about putting out a bag that might not work out in his favor given his warranty, but could fill a niche for you. Don't know if business wise it makes sense for either of you but I'm pretty sure you'd get some orders quickly -- not Wiggy's normal volume but money is money.
Naturally, count me in for the ultralight fabric, if it is to be considered. I'm willing to be one of guinea pigs for this experimental concept. In addition, I'd hate to get a 2 lb. 8-10 oz bag in taffeta, only to have the real Ultras get launched a month later.
This really light stuff absolutely (IS) the trend in much of what we backpackers are looking for.
04-28-2004, 01:11 AM
Id have to save pennies for it, because Im spread too thin as it is, but if its not obvious already, Id be interested in a "Kifaru Special".
by my reckoning.. looking over this thread, theres a good 8-10 people interested in this sort of bag on this thread alone. And I didnt count too many posts up from the bottom... there are probably more, as wella s on the other thread, and amoung Kifaru and Non-Kifaru customers alike.
04-28-2004, 06:04 AM
How about sewing some "belt loops" to the bottom so it could be strapped to the sleeping pad. 2 sets should be enough. No drafts, no compression of insulation no more sliding off the pad... 2nd wind
04-28-2004, 06:12 AM
I'll buy one.
04-28-2004, 06:33 AM
Give me an idea of how much overtime my wife needs to work /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif and I'm in too! sooo much for the yearlong commitment for no new gear /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif Randy
As much as I hate to add weight, I echo 2nd Wind on the loops for pad attachment. Very nice for tossers and turners like myself.
If this could be a reality, I might have to see if I can cancel the WM I have on order.
04-28-2004, 07:18 AM
I'm usually in Golden on the weekends (I do my mountain outings during the week). So, yeah, I think we can link up. Phone the Shop when you're in FC and we'll give it a try.
You're right about sleeping bags being our missing link. And we've been asked quite a few times to fill it. We even have the expertise to do it--Staff folks here used to work for Marmot. But that's not going to happen now. Jerry is a guest on my Board; the subject of sleeping bags originated here, directed at him, and therefore it's bad form even to think about competing with him. Bottom line: it's Jerry's call--whether or not he does it at all, whether or not he goes it alone, or wants to discuss teaming up with me in some fashion, all of it. This Board is nuetral territory--poaching should be self-evidently dishonorable. After re-reading your post I know you're not saying outright that Kifaru should do sleeping bags, but I'll go ahead and just clear the air. So, Jerry, the call is completely up to you.
To be totally clear, I was not at all suggesting that you go into competition with Jerry. I was proposing some sort of partnership or licensing arrangement that might benefit both of you.
I don't know whether that would entail Jerry providing you with insulation for your own bag or Jerry making bags to your specifications (okay "our" specifications giving credit to all the great ideas proposed by people on this board) to be branded and sold by you, but based on the current conversation it seemed like something worth exploring and I wasn't sure if either you or Jerry would bring it up.
I'm sold on the value of Jerry's insulation and consider it integral to the proposed bag. I'm also a huge fan of your products, and believe your backpack hunting background would aid greatly in the design of the final product. Jerry knows insulation. You know backpack hunting and have an existing clientele that would be well served by such a product.
The whole gist of this and the other thread is that there is a disconnect between Jerry's current bags, which though excellent in most respects, have certain drawbacks for hunters like us. I am suggesting a way to address the market demand without Jerry compromising the reputation of his current line.
However I'm not one of the involved parties, just a potential customer and not privy to any details that might make this idea viable or not. I just want to be absolutely explicit in saying that I was not suggesting you take the ideas posted here to compete against Jerry and apologize in advance if anyone took that away from my earlier post.
04-28-2004, 08:58 AM
I will buy a pair of sleeping bags mentioned, such that the 2.5 pounder can zip to the 3 pounder, as a mated set. This way those of us who dont sleep alone can justify haveing both a fall adn a winter bag. and still keep momma warm.
Need to be in full-sized dimensions for 210 pounders at 6 feet plus.
email me when you are ready.
04-28-2004, 08:59 AM
The raku design with "belt loops" would still be my 1st choice, but I am not interested in commiting $ to it with out 1st knowing the weight. I would bet there are alot of tree stand hunters back East here that would be interested too. 2nd wind
04-28-2004, 09:37 AM
At this moment I have a dent in my head. You know about hitting someone with a two by four to get their attantion.
So I am giving up or in to all of you.
I called my prime fabric supplier and he will be shipping shortly a roll of about 1 ounce per square yard nylon to me color black. I told him 1 oz. plus or minus 5 percent. I told him it must be tightly woven and vapor permeable. That is my criteria. It seems due to the very light weight of the yarn most of these materials get a coating for stability. I expect the price to be about 50% higher than what I currently pay.
I am not going to make your bag until I receive the lighter weight fabric. I am making the pattern for your bag so itr will be available for others about the same size or a long, which is not a problem for those of you over 6 foot tall.
I really don't like the coil zipper, to delicate.
I have 30 inche #10's that I use for jackets and vest. I would be more comfortable with that zipper.
I learned a long time ago from a Maine guide that narrow bags for summer use can retain to much heat, something to consider.
When you order state that you want hanging loops.
If my production manager quits because of you guys I off the thread.
Soon to be rich,
Couple comments. I like JF's specs on the bag. Most manufactures temp ratings are 30-35 then go to 15. I think a 20 degree bag fits the bill better for the Northern areas.
On the pad sleeve system that Big Agnes uses. Some may not like it but in my experience, I love it. Spent 35 nights in my BA bag last year and slept as well or better than at home in my bed.
You are a prince among commoners and shall soon be rich with gratitude from the ultralight loyalists on the Kifau forum..... /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
As far as financially rich?.....well....uhhhh.....
I can also heartily endorse the BA sleeve system. It keeps me from getting tangled in the bag as I thrash about at night. It also saves the weight of insulation on the bottom of the bag.
04-28-2004, 10:34 AM
Glad to hear we can make the ultralight fabric work! As you know I am interested in two of them with center zips.
I hope I don't give you a brain embalism with another request, but I am concerned that you said the fabric might be coated and tightly woven. I can't imagine any coated fabric being as breathable as the same fabric without coating. In addition some of the coatings breakdown and get sticky and stinky over time, (okay it probably takes 20 years, but I have had some quality tents and packs I have had to scrap because of coatings.) Is there anyway we can find an uncoated fabric of 1 oz or less? Perhaps something closer to the 0.9 oz pertex quantum or the "Mountainsmith 0.8 oz high tenacity polyamide 15 denier Polyant Sailcloth technology Airnet," whatever that is. Also, I thought you said we were after a fabric that was not tightly woven to encourage breathability. I like your thinking about maximum breathability, especially since we are not trying to hold back down as these other products must do. And as it has already been mentioned by Patrick, I really don't care if the shell is rather fragile.
So, can we hang on a little longer and find a lightweight loosely woven fabric of 1 oz or less with no coating and maximum breathability! If all this is enough to put you in the hospital? At least you know you'll have some visitors. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
Jerry- That is a new one for me...I was thinking of the bags being sized in your normal fashion, just not oversized for the Overbag application...I'll kick back and watch with great anticipation, as it seems you are really getting bombarded at the moment. Thanks for all of your input here, it is very appreciated.
Jerry, thanks for putting up with the assault. Like some bad sci-fi movie, "Resistance is futile."
I'm working on cancelling my order for a custom WM bag and if I can stop it in time I'll be calling you to discuss ordering one of these.
There have been a lot of ideas thrown out here. Now that you've decided to go with a lighter material, were you planning on a standard design based on your conversation with JF or are we still talking a custom bag per the individual's specs? Either way do you have an approximate cost and target weight?
04-28-2004, 11:03 AM
Understood. No worries.
04-28-2004, 11:13 AM
Reread my prior post about the criteria I have for a fabric. It is opposite of what you wrote.
The base price is how close you come to an existing product, plus the up charge for the new fabric.
These folks will keep us from full retirement. We have opened the door and they have run in.
04-28-2004, 11:18 AM
"Told him it must be tightly woven and vapor permeable. That is my criteria. It seems due to the very light weight of the yarn most of these materials get a coating for stability. I expect the price to be about 50% higher than what I currently pay."
How about EPIC? It is advertized as making the fabric stronger. I have a bivy with this for the top. So far it seems to breath ok but I have only limited experience with it.I got it for use with a small tarp, it protects the bag from over spray and adds a few degrees of warmth... 2nd wind
04-28-2004, 11:38 AM
Clarification, the fabric I receive will not be coated.
I was the first maker to have samples of Nextec in the mid 90's. It was or still is tiny beads of a polymer of some sort applied to the yarn before weaving. It is permanent, and helps to repell water. As for adding strength, I doubt it. Each time a material is subjected to heat in its processing it is weakened. The Nextec process involves heat to cure the polymer.
The Nextec does not reduce vapor permeability since it is not a coating.
04-28-2004, 11:53 AM
On the loops and sleeves....couldn't the bag simply have small thumb-sized loops or grommets and then cord laced in, such as when attaching meat to pack, after camp set up?
04-28-2004, 12:07 PM
Glad to hear there is no coating on the fabric. I am still a bit confused about the weave thogh. Correct me if I am wrong, but the less tightly woven the fabric, the more breathable right? So do we have the least tightly woven uncoated, light-weight material we can find? Okay, so the cheese cloth and mosquito netting are out, but you know what I mean. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
Reread my prior post about the criteria I have for a fabric. It is opposite of what you wrote. "
I don't remember mentioning any fabrics, but what I think you are telling me here is that your bags will be warmer (meaning more comfort in colder conditions) than other bags of the same rating...which is what I meant to say originally. Speaking along these lines, I would compare your Overbag to the Cat's Meow (20deg) from TNF.
As far as my take on fabric coatings that you posted after the above qouted post, I think maybe you had me confused with somebody else maybe?
04-28-2004, 12:30 PM
I should have directed my answer to Forester.
The fabric will be the tightest weave available.
While I said they mills normally coat these light weight fabrics I will not be getting one with a coating.
As for the rating, yes, I believe my bags will be better performing than the rest, but that will have to come from you in the field once you get a bag. Based on the comparison of my over bag to the cats meow, that is a compliment. My bag is rated for +35.
Jerry- I don't have any first hand knowledge of the Cat's Meow, some here do. The two bags have similar fill weights, leading me to believe that they would be compareable...
04-28-2004, 12:59 PM
The cats meow has polarguard delta as its insulation. When originally made it had the original polar guard and was rated for +20, now that it has the delta fiber which is thinner and lighter the geniuses at tnf rated it to +15. It didn't perform at +20 so +15 is off the wall.
My over bag is rated at +35 and has been used by some at +25. The question I have is the individual sleeping for 4,5 or 8 hours. Are they wearing clothing, etc. The people involved in the use of the bag were military, which is different than the everyday backpacker. I therefore prefer to leave the rating as is and if you can do better, great.
That has kinda been my contention all along. I've read all kinds of reports on how the C.M. has worked for people down to the 20 deg. mark and I expected the same from your O.B. (boy...do we hold you to a fine standard around here or what?) based on the fill weight comparison. Now take the Overbag and cut it to the same dim's as a L/W Ultralight (soon to be ultrasuperlite... /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif ), without the zipper or maybe even better yet, a 30" #10, and presto...a +/- 2.5 pound, 100% gaurunteed wiggy's for a 190lb 6 footer like myself... sweet. Add your sweater and a set of leg jackets and it should be good down to.... well we won't go there...yet... Thanks for not packing up your toys and leaving us here in the sand box to ponder such pressing issues!
04-28-2004, 01:20 PM
Why not specify a loose weave for more breathability?
04-28-2004, 01:52 PM
If bthe thresd count is to low the fabric will spread and will not recover. I'm trying to give an example, say putting your fist against a losely wover wool.
04-28-2004, 02:01 PM
Mightn't it be a good idea if we summarize the requirements so that there is no confusion on what Jerry has so kindly offered to build? At least in that way he can have one set of bag charactersitics to build to. I'll give it a shot from what I've read above:
Shell material: less than or equal to 1 oz/sq ft.
: very breathable (tight knit or not?)
Temp. rating: 20F or less
Weight: 2.5 lbs or less (for long or reg length?)
Zipper: 30" Center zip #10
Size: Not well defined.
Options: belt loops for pad
: 0F rating at 3 lbs or less?
Warranty: NOT lifetime, give shell material
1) One fellow mentioned zipping two bags togehter. With a 30" zipper, I am not sure this is possibe.
2) I'd like to ensure cpmatibility with some of Jerry's other bags -- I'd like to slip this one into an overbag to get down in the -20F/-30F range of possible.
04-28-2004, 05:02 PM
Craig old boy, you got it.
As to zipping together, no reason that cant happen unless using a fixed or blind-end zipper assembly.
Size is critical if its Xlong it also needs be Xwide. not way Xwide, justrightXwide, so our manly shoulders can turn around in the bag. say to adequately fit a 48 inch sportcoat size person.
I am off to a south island new zealand tahr hunt in fourteen hours, so when I return I hope to see the finished architecture, the finished cost estimate, and I hope to be placed on the waiting list for two, one each at 2.5 pounds and 3 pounds.
And if my new Bibler tent lets my old down bag get soaked on this trip, I will confess how it happened and buy a tipi for sure.
fun thread this. nylon thread.
And the new aziom: let sleeping threads lie.
04-28-2004, 06:50 PM
Okay. I am satisfied on the material. I just want it to be as breathable as possible without compromising its abilty to maintain shape. As far as the rest of the specs as craig described, I don't think Jerry is asking us to agree on size and shape and temp ratings. Are you Jerry? I think we need to agree on any materials Jerry would have to buy like fabric and zippers.
04-28-2004, 07:00 PM
I own two WM bags for -20 use. One for me and one for wife. Down has never let me down, but then again issues with soaking rain for days are seldom an issue in the dead of winter.
I have been wanting a new 3 season bag, and was almost going to attempt to sew a down one this year. So I am interested to see what comes out of this thread.
-25 degree bag
-under 2.5 lbs for sure
-full zip or some kind or foot vent (going to be a summer bag too)
-pad loops or hanging loops that we can rig pad loops on
-a zipper that does not snag period.
-small compressed size (less then polarguard stuff)
-room to wiggle, but not be wastefull (my WM is 64"/39" Shoulder/Foot Girth )
-liner with good feel
04-28-2004, 07:33 PM
Wouldnt the form factor for these bags be something we should agree on? If for no other reason than to keep every single one of them from being a "custom" job? Im sure Jerry would probably appreciate us not asking him to come up with a new pattern for every one of these bags.
04-28-2004, 07:35 PM
This thread is a prime example of why it'll be a cold day in hell before I buy another bag than a Wiggy. Made in America. Actually does what is claimed, and the owner actually talks to the customer.
Those are a set of conditions that are almost impossible to find these days.
I just want a lamilite poncho liner. Nuthin fancy, just a copy of the US issue poncho liner with lamilite insulation.
04-28-2004, 08:04 PM
I have to agree with Trapper, I was about to order a new 20 deg down when this thread first started. I have decided to order one of Wiggy's Ultra Lights for my wife and wait to see what the result is here before I order mine.. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
To all interested......
When I spec'd out my bag with Jerry, I decided upon 66" shoulder and 40" foot at a Regular (6' or under) length. This is a "medium mummy" cut and should suffice for most of us. I'd encourage all interested parties to consider these dimensions as operative.
He surmised that he could hit the 2 lb. 8 oz. weight with his normal materials. I was dubious to some extent but willing to try for it, so I ordered.
Now that he has decided to go with the lighter fabric, I have no doubt that my bag will be below 2 lb. 8 oz. (maybe even down around 2 lb. 4 oz.)
We'll all know soon enough. If this project hits the weight goal we are all looking for, I'd personally suggest that we all give Wiggy the support he deserves and order up.
04-28-2004, 11:26 PM
Thanks for the update. Are you going with a 20* temerature rating? As always, I'm curious on the temperature rating in field conditions. Jerry has been very informative (Thanks Jerry) and, like the others, I've been following this thread with much interest.
04-29-2004, 01:39 AM
Been following this topic with interest also. I have the Hunter, and it fits nicely into the bottom of my Guide pack, but I'll be after one of those wiggys kifarus bags also. On my last camping trip with my son, he was eyeing off my Wiggys bag and said he wanted a bag like that, guess I'll have to get one to keep the boy Happy!
04-29-2004, 04:37 AM
Guys, How could anyone want a design other than this? http://www.nunatakusa.com/Sleeping_Bag_Raku.htm
Bring this along a w/b outer shell & save weight by leaving your insulated jacket home! 2nd wind
04-29-2004, 05:03 AM
2nd Wind, go up the thread, where Jerry commented about that design, and I believe, quoted $350 for one.
This project gets more interesting with every passing minute. Jerry deserves kudos for taking it on, and I agree, deserves to benefit greatly from his efforts.
I'll buy another bag from him regardless of the outcome of this endeavor.
Yes, 20 degree with full insulation on top, 1/2 thickness on the bottom. The bag will be cut full enough such that substantial layers can be worn inside.
I've been following this thread with great interest because I am a big Wiggys fan. My take on that Raku type bag is that it's more or less a niche type bag. To me it's sort of like "it looks good on paper", but how does it work for real world use? If you just want to lay around camp and be comfortable, then I guess it's fine. If that's to be my only insulated jacket, then that's where it would become a problem for me. To me, camp is where you sleep and eat, so when I venture away from camp to hunt or scout, I don't want to have to be lugging a big ass sleeping bag around on me as my jacket. Just my own opinion and observations.
04-29-2004, 07:03 AM
Jerry phoned me yesterday, and I duplicated your bag except for asking for smaller zipper, one slider, 2/3 length; also a drop collar inside, if that isn't standard already. Sounds like a very good "base" bag to me. I'm 5'11", 160lbs., and probably could go tighter, but I'm letting it ride in the interest of allowing Jerry some degree of standardization.
That was the point of my plea to the group, Ie: hopefully keeping Jerry from tearing his hair out by tweaking each bag by an inch or two. I like the 2/3 zipper idea, but the 30" seems a bit short although it might be OK in a center zip.
That shape should work well for most. I agree you could have gone maybe 62"...38" and saved a bit. Actually, I could have as well since I'm down about 20 lbs since the Elk show.
But maybe if most guys stick to a similar pattern, then Jerry won't go ballistic when we axe him for a 12-14 oz. lamilite sweater..... /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
04-29-2004, 07:40 AM
When I first took a look at that Raku design you are interested in, I figured the sleeves would make the bag cold to sleep in, but I just re-read the site and I see that you can still pull your arms and even the sleeves inside the bag like a regular bag and it says something about the sleeves being baffled. Does that mean there is an insulated flap of some kind that prevents cold air from coming in? I would think that a similar flap could prevent the drawcord foot section from leaking cold air too. And if the sleeves are long enough, and don't let cold air in the end, I might even leave my arms in there while sleeping. Hmmm. This is starting to look pretty good I can imagine stoking the stove in my soon to be Kifaru tipi without having to stick a cold arm and torso out to do it, and it already has the crotch length center zipper I desire and a really good looking hood design. Am I right about all these baffles, and if so is that expecting too much from Jerry's people?
04-29-2004, 08:06 AM
Forster, What came to my mind when I looked @ the webpage, was pulling the arms inside so that they form a 2nd barrier to drafts. My winter bag has 2 draw strings... one keeps warmth from escaping from the body section, the other adjusts the hood shape...?
Mel, I would rather be cool while moving with just a sweater and shell and then warm enough to stay on stand all day. Hunt your own hunt... 2nd wind
04-29-2004, 08:13 AM
Mel, I just re read your post, my failing memory didn't recall the: "Just my own opinion and observations." Please forgive my "hunt your own hunt" comment, I see that you were. 2nd w
04-29-2004, 11:57 AM
I have had a learning experience with respect to the quality and availability of ultra light weight nylon fabrics.
The Dimention Sail Cloth Co. does not deal in the very light weight fabric any longer. They did supply WM but that has come to an end. It wasn't worthwhile business in volume. WM may have to go off shore for production of bags that utilize the fabric. Further, the selection of light weight materials for US producers is very close to non-existant. However, I was able to find a one ounce ripstop color black and can get all the yardage I could ever want, but it is almost three times the cost of my current fabric. In order for the fabric to be handled easily it is put through a double callendering process. I expect it might be a little crinkly. It is probably more durable than I thought.
That will soften after a few uses or possibly with laundering. I have about 250 yards in route. I expect delivery late next week.
I will recalculate the cost of the Ultra Light bag made with this material according to the spec's for JF'S bag and put it on the board. As for sizing if you are a large person, 48/50 inch chest my standard wide body would be used and if you are small, 5'6" - 135 pounds the reg/ reg would be used, price will be the same regardless of size.
2nd wind it appears that you maybe the sole owner of a Wiggy sleeved bag. Your buddies have very good arguments against it, but I will build it if you want it.
Until next time have a good day.
04-29-2004, 12:20 PM
Somebody has to do it so it might as well be me. What is a double callendering process? And are we still plenty vapor permiable?
04-29-2004, 12:23 PM
The price is $180.00
Shell and lining will be the new nylon.
Top of bag will be standard 12 oz. Lamilite
Bottom, foot, hood, and zipper baffel 6 oz. Lamilite.
Zipper is optional from the #10 65 inch to a 30 inch # 8 coil. The #8 coil is what I compared to the #10.
Size of bag is also optional.
2nd wind your still at $350.00. I do make a walk around sleeping bag for the air force. It is a snow suit that has legs that convert to a sleeping bag. They tested it in AK. The tester to my surprise said he slept comfortable at -20 in his briefs without a ground pad, since he wouldn't have one if he had to punch out. It is now vacpacked in most of their air craft and those air craft that carry my super light will have them retired and replaced with this item.
In a survival situation I can really see its value.
I have two orders at this time, are there any more takers.
What is the target weight and temp rating for a long wide with a 30" #10?...somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 deg. and 2.5lbs?
04-29-2004, 01:03 PM
The +20 degree bag which is what we are talking about is 4 1/4 pounds now in the long and wide, using the new material and fill change I expect it to come in at about 3 1/4 pounds.
right...3 1/4 lbs...I was still thinking of the 35 deg. bag...that's why I said 2.5 lbs...sorry. Huodini himself couldn't make that bag a reality. Holding you to a fine standard is one thing, pulling the proverbial rabbit from the hat is another... /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
Yep I'll take one too Wiggy. Same as JF and Patrick's. Them two ain't gettin one up on me, I'll tell you that right now. I'll call your shop tommorrow from work during business hours. I hear you answer the phone in person.
Be careful walking around in that thing a lot of people still believe in Big Foot. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif No offense intended.
04-29-2004, 06:29 PM
Ed C, None taken. Perhaps I should consider a few blaze orange panels....!? 2nd w
04-30-2004, 06:26 AM
I ordered one of the bags yesterday evening. It sounds like just what I wanted.
04-30-2004, 08:54 AM
Just ordered mine!: Wiggy's regular wide dimensions, 40" 2-way center zip, 20'temp all around. I didn't save the weight on the bottom like some of the other guys, but I still saved about a pound. So, I'm a happy camper. I also ordered the fishnet long johns and lamilite booties. Had a nice conversation with Wiggy. If your thinking about ordering one of these "Kifaru Specials" (my phrase not Wiggy's) nows the time.
04-30-2004, 10:35 AM
Very funny image ED C planted in my mind. I can't stop chuckling about the idea of someone seeing 2nd wind rambling through the woods wearing his Raku bag and thinking he is boogfoot or an alien or whatever. :p Still I support you in your choice 2nd wind, I think that thing is pretty cool myself and would go for it if money was no object.
04-30-2004, 11:28 AM
In speaking with my supplier of this new material he advises me that the fabric is soft and not crinkly as I thought.
As I told Forester, I have had to order additional material to keep up with the orders. Some have come from site watchers who have not participated in the discussion.
Call me so I can get the details from you as to what you want.
See? You are going to be rich. Well, kind of. Sorry, but after all this, I couldn't cancel my WM in time and will have to hold off until closer to fall when I'll give you a call about a lightweight 0 degree bag. I did push two of my buddies who are in need of bags to call you so hopefully they help use up that material you invested in. Thanks again for listening.
P.S. Do you happen to have an XL Sweater in OD in stock at the store?
04-30-2004, 12:37 PM
Your lose on the bag, but we do have an XL OD sweater in stock. Call and ask for Robert, he will be able to take care of it today and ship no later than Monday.
Jerry- What is the difference between the top and bottom thickness of these "Kifaru" models in comparison to the Ultra and the Overbag? I believe you stated 12 oz. top and 6 oz. bottom for the new bag...what are your existing models. I'm still trying to decide on +35 or +20...Would the +35 version crack the 2.5 lb mark in long/wide?
04-30-2004, 01:32 PM
The over bag in long wide is 3 pounds on average wiht current materials. With the new material it should come in close to 2 1/2 pounds.
The Kifaru model utilizes the Ultar Light top and Over Bag bottom, foot and zipper baffel. The weight should be comparable.
04-30-2004, 02:00 PM
Fully expect me to place an order... I just have no idea when /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
Between a wedding, honeymoon, 3 new rifles, a bow, 3 new backpacks, a classic Jeep Im restoring, and just paying the bills... ahem... Lets just say it might be a little while. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
However Im really excited about this new sleeping bag and though it took a little headbutting, Id like to thank you Jerry for your time, effort, and energy on making this bag a reality. I think youll find that this was a long awaited product.
04-30-2004, 02:37 PM
Good things come to those who wait.
04-30-2004, 02:39 PM
I called Wiggy's and spoke with Jerry this afternoon, this gentleman knows his stuff. He may well be opinionated, blunt and dismissive of products he knows are inferior, but, I have been at this long enough to be able to sort out the posers from the pros and Jerry is a PRO.
I am going to be buying one of these bags for use as an emergency fallback when trekking, hunting or whatever. I have been wanting something like this for years, but, I have never found the right one.
I just returned from a five day trip in interior B.C. and the rain and wind were pretty intense. My custom made Integral Designs down and G-T bag was covered with large rain drops, the lower third of the bag was completely wet. I shook it off, rolled over and went back to sleep, the bag remained dry, warm and comfy for the next three nights.
So, down bags and laminates can and do work, BUT, this bag cost me over a grand and it is more trouble to worry about than a Wiggy's would be. There is a place for both and also the super-light down bags for summer, a guy pretty well needs three bags to cover all bases. Fortunately, my wife has no problem with this idea.
It's great to see some orders happening.
Originally, I was not keen on a shorter than full length zipper, but I'm warming up (pun) to the idea. It looks like a 30" would go from shoulder to below the hip and a 48" would reach the knee. I'd like to save weight wherever possible with zipper and as much use of the UL fabric as possible, (100% of the bag if possible), so I'll go for the lightest zipper that you are comfortable with in 30"-36"-48" (sort of whatever you have)
04-30-2004, 09:28 PM
I've got an Ultralight now- but danged if I can remember the size... I'm 'bout 5'11, and 185 (until Sheep season peels a few kilos off).
What would be the weight of the new 20 degree bag, and is that 20 degrees with or without insulated clothing.
05-01-2004, 08:28 AM
Jerry: I slept on it last night (another punn intended) and I think I am going to go with the lesser weight insulation on the bottom of the bag like the other guys, as well as the lighter weight baffle construction they are using. I hope all that's not a problem with the center zip. I though I would save weight on my sleeping pad system instead, but the more I think about it, the less likely I am to go with just one lightweight pad that can fail. Also I guess I didn't specify black on the booties and fishnets. (Seems a bit strange ordering black fish net underwear on a message board.) I'll call to confirm on Monday.
05-01-2004, 09:08 AM
Like Forester call Monday to review changes, please.
I suspect you have a long/wide size bag.
The plus 20 degree rating - when in a tent and on a ground pad is probably with long johns (fish nets) and booties. If you can go with less we will find out this fall.
05-02-2004, 11:06 PM
I need you to post please! I'm a bit confused from being out of town to a two day potlatch in Tetlin Village. What is the finished weight gonna be? What temp range? What fabric? What zipper? What price? Did I see $180 /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif BTW my wife's family gave away 39 rifles, well over 150 blankets, quite a few moose hide, hand beaded moccasins and necklaces, 5 brand new shovels that we used to dig and fill the grave for her great aunt and the rope we used to lower the casket into the ground. Her and my daughter helped cook and prepare 3 meals daily for 100-200 people. Indian life takes a little adjustment but they are some great people and it made my wife happy to take part with her family so my time and expense are well worth it. Tell me about the BAG JF.... I'm a believer you know light weight gear. Randy
05-03-2004, 08:21 AM
Please see my post of April 29.
05-03-2004, 09:34 AM
I have been reading this thread for quite sometime and now that I have seen the progression I have a few questions. Firstly I am from the Great White North and the way I hunt and wander is in a way similar to most on this board. From what I have read a lot of you like to distance yourself from others using the mountains/hills and more difficult terrain. My buddies and I have found over the years that the best way to distance ourselves from heavily hunted and busy areas is to use the vast expanse of lakes and rivers to our benefit. Another positive to this is the sole fact that we can easily take a larger load (we still travel and carry light weight gear, Just not super concerneed with Ultralight gear) since we only have to shoulder it on portages.
To the real point of this post though. I don't know whether 2nd Wind and myself are just willing to go against the grain here but that Raku design has really got me thinking. I know people don't really like it but I am just curious as to what the big drawbacks would be. I really like the idea of being able to stoke my small stove without having to stick my arm out of my bag. I also like how the footbox can open up for warmer weather.
I would also like to take this oppurtunity to commend Jerry on the part he has taken in this discussion because it has added a whole new dimension for me. I have even sent him an email this morning requesting a catalogue from him. I feel very safe buying one of his products and it living up to my expectations because it sounds like Jerry is possibly more critical then I ever could be (much like Patrick).
05-03-2004, 10:04 AM
Think about my sweater as an alternative to the raku. Between the sweater and bag you will have I believe (think about this 2nd wind) a combination that will belighter in weight and perform better.
Just a suggestion.
The bag weight is uncertain at this time. I'm thinking/hoping that it'll be 2 lb. 8 oz. or less. As mentioned earlier on, this is not as light as some down bags at 20 degrees in a medium mummy cut. This is an area (one of the few) where I'm willing to sacrifice a little weight for a possible margin of safety in wet weather. Mine is a touch tighter than the std Wiggy UL but will still give me enough room to layer up inside. In talking with Jerry this AM, I decided to stick with the #10 zipper but @ a 40" length.
I'm very happy with this bag choice. Combining it with my 20 oz. Patagonia synthetic jacket should give me a temp range down into the teens pretty easily. That's about all I need.
05-03-2004, 10:59 AM
Hey Jerry, Is this sweater you are talking about on your website or do I need the catalogue??? Also, the bag which you are referring to pair up with the sweater is the Ultralight one being discussed here, Right!!
05-03-2004, 11:36 AM
It is on the web site.
I am referring to putting it with the new bag, correct.
05-03-2004, 12:14 PM
Greer, his sweater is every bit as good as he says it is.
05-03-2004, 07:26 PM
Thanks to Jerry and JF for the replies.
I'm going to have to wait and see what JF's bag is upon delivery. 3 1/4 lbs. is too heavy for most of my needs, 2 lbs. 8 oz. in a 20 degree bag with lamilite is right down my alley. I appreciate everyones input and especially jerry for being willing to listen and more importantly act on input and new ideas. I believe if you can come in to JF's weight range expectations there may be a far larger market than what's represented by this board. I have been comfortable with the ratings given by TNF, Sierra Designs & Kelty, perhaps if jerry's bag ratings are conservative I may be better suited with a higher temp rating and less wait....time will tell. Again thanks to all. Randy
05-04-2004, 04:13 AM
Jerry----I expect I will order a 20 degree bag after I have worked a few more overtime shifts. I have enjoyed listening to this discussion.
05-04-2004, 07:47 AM
Thanks for the response Jerry and I understand what you are saying about wearing the sweater with the bag, and yes that would make sense. I am still looking at that Raku design though and am curious about others and also your profesional opinion.
I will tel you why I am thinking about getting you to make me a 20* bag based upon this design and you tell me if I am crazy. Firstly if I roll over I won't have my Bag bunching and twisting on me (which drives me crazy). Secondly, if I have to get out of tent for a midnight pee just open up the footbox hike it up and wander out into the not so cold outside. Finally if I need to stoke the stove I just stick my arm out the sleeve. No more unzipping the bag and letting cold air in if I have already let it die down a little. I could understand what you mean about wearing the sweater with the bag but my big thing is not wearing too much to bed. I usually in cold weather only wear a good set of synthetic long undies set..
I don't really know what to think about the whole Raku design so thats why I am asking for a little help from all of you. this design makes sense to me (i think) but maybe it doesn't to someone else and has some sort of serious downfall, other then bulkiness. So please let me know what you think, especially you jerry since you would be the person making it..
05-04-2004, 08:34 AM
Some of the reasons I like the Raku design are that I live in the East where much hunting involves sitting still on stand, All day during the rut. During warm/bug weather I like my Henessey hammock. The ability to easily get in & out of the snap shut bottom seems appealing.
I had lost track of this thread (been busy researching & buying components for my soon to arrive...5/6/04... .35 Whelen improved). If I understand correctly the "Kifaru" model comes with a half zip down the front of the bag...?180.00 vs 350.00... Perhaps I could learn to live without arms on a bag. I plan to wait for the field reports to come in. I would still want the opening at the foot end. JF's plan to have most fo the insulation on top just makes sense to me.
Ok, back to pondering bullet options, those North Forks look pretty appealing 2nd wind
05-04-2004, 09:33 AM
If you want to pay me $350.00 I'll be happy to make it.
As for my advise, if it were a good idea in the first place it would have been a stock item with all sleeping bag companies. I personally can't think of a good reason to own one.
If you are concerned about pulling the bag around with you,order the wide body model, then you can turn in the bag.
As for getting up in the middle of the night to pee, well I've been doing that at 12000 feet for 11 years and I hunt third season here in CO. I sleep nude or in my fishnets and when nature calls I get up put on my booties and sweater and ejoy the sky each time I'm out at 2 AM. It is normally 0 to -25. So I don't get the problem.
I am traditional and conservative in my way of thinking. Jackets are jackets and sleeping bags are sleeping bags.
05-04-2004, 11:06 AM
Jerry don't get me wrong here, I realize you are a traditional sort of guy who produces high quality traditional products. I have also realized over the years that deviation from traditional norms is the only way for true progression. The reason I am looking at this sort of bag is simply because it is different then the typical design. Where would Patricks tent and tipi designs be if everyone just discounted the design upon first glance because they do not fit the picture for what a typical mountaineering grade shelter should be(not to bring you into this). All I have been trying to do here is decide whether there are merits to go with this design.
I would also have to say I don't exactly share your enthusiasm for getting out of my bag at 2am in -25 weather and I don't think I am some sort of wimp. Also, this discussion was in no way a rip upon your products. I just thought you might be able to give me a little more insight into why the traditional bag design is so much better then the Raku. For example, other then the way it looks and its features that differ from the rest of the industry is there some underlying problem with it?? Remember not to take the above as some sort of an attack, instead take it as a compliment because I assume you of all people could give me some answers.
05-04-2004, 11:40 AM
Firstly I did not think anything of our discussion in a negative way.
I am flattered that so many of the osters and none posters have ordered the new bag.
As for progress, sometimes when a product is produced that appears to be an advance such as thinsulate and primaloft in the field of insulation or goretex or sympatex in the area of waterproof and vapor permeable the information sounds great. But these products have failed to perform in the field as advertised. In the case of thinsulate and primaloft they have for the most part gone with the wind where as continuous filament fiber Lamilite and Polarguard continue to hold the top spot in the insualtion field. It is for good reason they work, been around since 1968 for PG and 1986 for Lamilite. They have established a tradition which I believe will be around long after I am gone. As for the wp products people are finding that they don't perform and eventually the urethane film will be the dominent coating. Most assuredly because it is far less expensive and does all that the other products do.
Now for the sleeved open bottom sleeping bag. I can make them very light and compactible but they don't have real purpose. The foot end opening simply doesn't keep feet warm. Try one when the temperature is 25 degrees. I currently make them and have for about ten years for Ecotat, and I'v heard many complaints fro civilian buyers. They want an insulated insert to make up for the opening. So if you want one again I'll be happy to make it for you. I believe that this type of conjured sleeping bag is not progress.
05-04-2004, 11:57 AM
Jerry, Thanks very much I appreciate the input and it will put it to good use..
05-04-2004, 12:03 PM
This must be the largest ever posting on this web site. Its been imformative and I have taken advantage of Jerry's offer to make a bag thats light and warm down to 20F.
I believe that I'm the 12th or 14th sign up.
Jerry - enjoyed out telcons and am glad to meet a person who has heard of "String Vests"
05-04-2004, 01:06 PM
I have talked with you over the phone on a few occasions. I think I know where you are coming from in terms of your pride over lamilite and and the following you have. Over the time I have been reading this board, the overall opinion of your stuff seems to be very favorable. One of the things that goes on at the kifaru board is a constant desire to change, adapt, lighten-up, and otherwise fiddle-even with time-proven stuff. Nothing wrong with that, either. I hope you don't feel like people are telling you that "you would be a success if...etc"
The fact is places like wiggys and kifaru are the last bastians for true quality gear; I think that leaves you and Patrick stuck with the task of filling a lot of niches for a lot of people.
You can count me in on the new bag. After I recover from a few bills I will be calling you and ordering one myself. I have the superlite ftrss and absolutely love it. The new bag will fill a spot when the weather isn't "that" bad, but I still don't trust down. One question... I have a wiggys ground pad which does very well. Can you make a pad with a bit narrower width or is the standard 28" selected for performance reasons?
05-04-2004, 01:27 PM
I can make a narrower ground pad as well as any specific lenght you may want.
I like being the last bastian of something.
05-04-2004, 10:31 PM
HOLY CRAP, BOYS!!!
I see by his website that poor Jerry has to sell his Mercedes- is that to cover the explosive costs of our dream bags, Wiggy?
05-05-2004, 04:11 AM
Please post his website, thanks.
Don't worry Yukon...that's been there for a couple of months.
05-05-2004, 07:09 AM
Its a cream puff.
Have had it for about 5 years, now has 51,700 miles.
Don't drive it much so I thought somebody else would put it to good use, how about you.
05-05-2004, 10:46 AM
Are you kidding? I couldn't be seen around Whitehorse in anything like that, after spending the last several years tooling around in this beauty...
05-05-2004, 02:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Yukon Hunter:
Are you kidding? I couldn't be seen around Whitehorse in anything like that, after spending the last several years tooling around in this beauty...
http://www.hunt101.com/img/149347-big.jpg</div></div>Now that is a beautiful truck..
05-05-2004, 03:04 PM
OK, I just ordered on of the "specials'" can't wait to get it out in the field and see how it works.
As some of you know from my prior postings, I'm a true believer in gortex/down bags. Never let me "down."
But hay, I'm always looking for something better...
05-06-2004, 06:15 AM
On these special sleeping bags, is there a long wait time on building them? Or would you rather we call your shop for that info?
05-06-2004, 08:10 AM
Fabric is enroute at this time.
I will be processing it to the Lamilite next week in order to start production.
I would appreciate all orders as soon as possible so all the bags can be run through production at the same time.
That way I can make up the money so maybe I won't have to sell the car.
05-06-2004, 08:29 AM
Count me in. I will send off a money order Friday. Probably priority mail so you will have at the beginning of next week. I'm a little sketchy about what was decided for zippers and standard length, etc. I am 5'7" so whatever you settled on will probably be fine. As for zippers I'm ok with #10 or anything else.
05-06-2004, 09:25 AM
Note on your order a regular lenght and what girth you want. Our regular girth is 62 inches (about 140 pounds max) the new girth 66 inches or the standard wide body of 68 inches (190 POUNDS AND HEAVIER)
05-08-2004, 06:23 AM
Wow, whilst I've been out scouting this thread has continued to build. Jerry, I must confess I kinda like being the last bastion of something too! Maybe it's our High Country water here in glorious Colorado?
2nd Wind, Greer-- I look at the Raku design like I do gloves vs. mittens. Think about it. A glove, wherein the fingers are seperated, cannot be as warm as a mitten, wherein the fingers help warm each other. Now think about those isolated arms out there by themselves instead of inside the perimeter of the bag, contributing to and benifiting from the torso warmth. Such a bag cannot possibly be as warm as a "mitten-style" bag at anywhere near the same weight, all up.
One last thing--in a floorless tent you don't even have to vacate your sleeping bag to pee. Think that over, men.
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