muzzleloader

[Ed C]

I'm looking to buy my first muzzleloader. Need advice on accuracy. Ignition must be exposed to weather, open sights, fiber optics OK.

What should I be looking at? I would like for it to be accurate to 200 if that is possible. I will be hunting elk with it.

Any recommendations from you muzzleloader black powder guys appreciated. Books, literature, web sites, experience, whatever. Thanks

[David in OR]

Everything I did in preparation for my first ML hunt this year? Do the opposite of all those things. You'll be fine.

I'll let the smart experienced guys provide the helpful responses.

[Ed C]

Everything I did in preparation for my first ML hunt this year? Do the opposite of all those things. You'll be fine.

I'll let the smart experienced guys provide the helpful responses.
http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae44/WillisMcGee65/biggrin.gifhttp://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae44/WillisMcGee65/biggrin.gifhttp://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae44/WillisMcGee65/rofl.gifhttp://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae44/WillisMcGee65/rofl.gif
Sounds like I need to hear more from you David please tell.

[David in OR]

Mainly, don't 1) buy a used Spanish-manufactured "firearm" just because you can't easily afford another few hundred dollars or 2) use any muzzleloader that doesn't use musket caps anywhere near to or west of the Cascade crest.

Also, if you own a rain jacket made of eVent--that is, one that works really well?--don't leave it at home and take your Precip jacket just because you're going to be a little east of the Cascade crest and everybody knows it's drier on that side.

About the only things I did right was pick my hunting partner (and his popup trailer, yeah! :)) and bring enough bourbon.

[jdb3]

I would buy a name brand, Pedersoli, Lyman etc. and practice. You can buy one of the new sabot firing rifles but they are not as accurate and don't have the open-to-the-element ignition system. I would go with something like the Great Plain or Rocky Mountain Hawken. Forget about ranges over 120 yards. Get it in 54 cal and work up a load, 90 grains of FFFG is a good place to start. I wouldn't worry too much about the rain. I live in Southeast Alaska where it is know to rain a little, unlike the dry country west of the Cascades. My hunting partner has taken about everything imaginable on this continent except brown bear with his 54 Hawken. This past year he has taken a muskox, bison and a Nevada big horn sheep with it. It kills caribou and moose well too. Have fun with it; practice, practice, practice. Jim

[Randy]

Ed,
I have a TC Black Diamond. TC now makes a new model that is specific to the requirements in WA other like states.
I would stick with TC or an older Knight. Just my preference. TC is US made and they carry a lifetime warranty.
The rifles are fully capable of 200 yard accuracy, but with open sights you'll be humbled very quickly. I put a Williams peep on mine and can keep shots inside about 6" pretty consistently.
I shoot 250 gr flat point round nose Laser Cast 45 cal bullets in sabots. I also shoot loose Pyrodex, 100 grains usually.
For WA, get a stainless, synthetic rifle. Cleans up easily and withstands the Cascades pretty well.
I'm going back to my front stuffer next year as well, better seasons in WA.

[David in OR]

^ By "smart" and "experienced," that is what I had in mind.

[Ed C]

Thanks Randy. I'm researching TC Black Diamond XR and Knight DISC Extreme.
I have been humbled before good thing I don't embarrass easily. Might as well set my sights high. Knight makes a model called Long Range Hunter they are claiming 200 yd accuracy.

Maybe we'll have to hunt us up some elks next year?

[Smokepole]

You can buy one of the new sabot firing rifles but they are not as accurate and don't have the open-to-the-element ignition system.

Not true, go with what Randy said. You can get some really good deals on Black Diamonds.

[snakey2]

Ed your eyes are as old as mine so 200yds will be a real stretch even with a good peep sight. I have a Lyman Great Plains and I am sure it would be accurate enough to 200 yds but no way can I see to do it. 100 is really my limit but I know you are a sneaky guy so getting that close will be no problem for you. Have fun!

[Smokepole]

Fiber optics can help. They're not as precise as a good peep, but IMHO they make up for it in visibility, especially for old farts like you guys.

[Ed C]

Fiber optics can help. They're not as precise as a good peep, but IMHO they make up for it in visibility, especially for old farts like you guys.
http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae44/WillisMcGee65/hali_ruahahaha.gif
Thanks Smoke

Younger guys like yourself prefer peeps?

I wonder if I should try both or just go with the fiber optics for us old farts?

[Smokepole]

I use fiber optics!! But I've never tried a shot at 200, the longest was about 130. Try both, and see which you like.

[Jim N]

I am real short on experience in the ML area but did luck out on my first rifle. Got a used Remington 700 50 cal, exchanged the #11 nipple for a musket cap version and put fiber optic front & Lyman 57 WJS receiver sights on it. It is a really accurate rifle - likes Barnes 290 grainers a lot. WA & OR legal.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n302/coot_03/MZgroup025.jpg

[David in OR]

Jim, are you sure that group wasn't from my Spanish blunderbuss? Oh, wait, there would've been powder burns on the paper... lol

[Jim N]

David,

I was hoping no one would look too close at the details!

[Ken]

Ed- I really like my TC Omega. My FIL has had the same luck with his Encore. But have proven dependable in the wet weather.

Nice group Jim. I like the Barnes myself, but use the untipped. They blow right through 8" Hemlocks behind the target at 50 yards. I'm pretty interested to see how they work on game.

[just a feed boy]

I would recomend a 54 caliber or larger and keep your shots to 100 yds or less. For the money a lyman Great plains with a pee sight is the least money for a quality mass production gun. These guns throw a large chunk of lead that sinks like a brick. Its more like a giant arc. 200 yds is not even a consideration. Once you have one you will want more. I would prefer a flint to a percussion, only use real black powder in it. I have had a lot of muzzle loaders and short of building what I want this is what I would get. Peep sights would be advisable.

[Ken]

I shoot 250 gr flat point round nose Laser Cast 45 cal bullets in sabots.

Any special sabots Randy?

I've got some BTB 250's kickin' around the reloading bench that I'd like to try.

[Nake]

http://i521.photobucket.com/albums/w337/mollylibby/2f8351ab.jpg

I just got the omega x7 24" sst barrel lam stock peep sites .50 cal

[Ken]

They came out with that X7 the year AFTER I got my Omega. I would have got one of those instead of the heavier version I have. Since then, TC has dropped them from the line-up, but they still pop up from time to time used etc. I'd like to snag one but have a hard time justifying it when mine works so well.

Nice gun Nake. How's it shoot?

[Nake]

It took me a while to find one. i got it off gunbroker finally after trying on guns america. There are several retailers that had them on their website but all out of stock. They are kinda scarce and there are few people looking.

I have put about 4 sabots thru it from 30- 60 yds all on the mark. But not sure if that is the best way to go. I am new to muzzleloading and haven't figured out if it is sabots or power belts. I also need to keep the all copper bullet thing in consideration cause I am in a condor range and we can't use lead on anything.

Where I am in calif there is one late season either *** deer draw that I want to participate in, so I have a about a year to figure it out. It is really brushy and tough hiking because of that so I wanted the carbine muzzleloader it carries nice, real light and points well. I am using triple 7 ignition and pre forms to start and it seems to be handy enough to manage at this point. I want to slow down enough to enjoy the process of muzzleloading so hopefully it will be the right choice. Although with anything related to hunting it seems there will be a collection of gear that will start piling up ; )

[Ken]

I've been using Heavy Shot 'Cheap Shot' sabots for practice as a local shop had them REAL cheap on clearence as few years back. Lucky enough for me they print in the same spot as the more expensive Barnes, so making the transition from practice to hunting is as easy as shooting one Barnes to veryify zero, clean, load, go hunt...

I've not tried a bunch of different powder or pellet combinations as two 777's seem to shoot well and should provide enough oommpphh. One of these years I'm going to set down with the gun and wring it out using a few different powders. My biggest complaint is I get a big crud ring right in front of the seated charge making subsequent loadings VERY hard. I usually only get two shot's then I have to clean. I'd like to find a powder/pellet combo that does away with this and let's me get a few more bangs in.

[KurtB]

Nake, We bought the same rig new in box in Sept this year. So far with limited load development, it is shooting the Hornady FPB bullet very well. We can't use sabots here so had to go with full size bullet. That running with CCI mag shotshell primers and BH209 has been really easy to work with. The rifle is my son's and I have to say I kind of want one now. Good luck with your shooting.

I did jb bore weld the recoil lug to the barrel as it was not tight and was held on by two torx head screws. It is rock solid now!

[rayporter]

the BH 209 will cure the crud ring. but there is a price [$$$] to be paid. also you can try the harvester crush rib sabots to help with loading. if your allowed sabots that is. i too have found the cheap shots to work quite well on target and on game.
my luck with the FPB bullet was not too good.

[GreatNW]

EdC,
Ian McMurchy wrote a book a while back that has the type of rifles we can use in WA. The most modern one I've seen is a T/C that is called a NW model to meet the non 209 exposed to the weather requirements in WA. Just under $400 at Adventure Sports in Lynnwood.

That said, you should be able to get a heck of a deal on a good used Black Diamond. Any of the Knight MK85 type will work, too.

.50 cal will keep your life simple when buying consumables easily. Guys I hunt with have great success with musket caps, 2 777 pellets and a 250gr cheap shot or shock wave.

I gave my black diamond to my son-in-law and kept a .54 cal Knight LK93. Shot a .348gr copper clad Powerbelt and it surprised me in how well it performed on a mulie.

I am by no means an expert, but have made a lot of mistakes and still managed to take a couple of nice deer with it. Haven't had a shot on an elk yet.

Stainless as always is highly recommended. I like to shoot from a dirty barrel. And it is kind of quirky, but I want the breech area clean and the nipple clean. I had a no fire from leaving too much crud on the nipple after shooting some targets one day. Pulled the plunger, squeezed the trigger and still got lucky on a mulie this year.

I'll check my email for a guy on the 24hourcampfire who had a nice rifle for sale. I'd search the old for sale threads and if you see something that works and doesn't look like it sold you can find some nice rifles. Plus, no ffl required.

You will like the different seasons and fewer hunters.

[Tim in Washington]

Ed,let us know what you settle on,I've been thinking about getting one to
Tim

[GreatNW]

EdC, did you find one yet? Thought I would add that there is no real ballistic advantage to anything over .50 cal when using sabots other than burning more powder. I really think that it will be hard to get anything across the counter for .54cal soon. It is already pretty limited. I do like my .54, but I have plenty of supplies and bullets and have been using the powerbelts which satisfies me in my own mind that I'm talking advantage of the wider bullet. It sure has done the job when I've done mine!
I like the info at this website. Here is a link with a lot of good points about accuracy.
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=9192
Like I mentioned in an earlier post, McMurchy's book because he uses a bunch of rifles that are mostly of the style we can use. Less than $6 at amazon. I grab mine from the library when I need it.
http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Muzzleloading-Todays-Whitetails-Murchy/dp/0873419510/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1327693889&sr=8-4