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snowdevil
01-09-2003, 04:57 PM
From: OliverG
Category: Category 1
Date: 12 Dec 2002
Time: 13:34:12 -0500
Remote Name: 12.34.16.98

Comments
Just received my 8man ultralight tipi w/ large stove. Looks great (really impressed by stove bag attention to detail!)!
Before I embark with my youngins (3 yrs 'n 9 months) I wanted to get the latest feedback on the whole issue of cookin' in the tent and the liklihood of getting unwelcome visitors who can kick my golden retriever's butt.
What do you other tipi / stove folks do ?
Thanks,
Oliver...

snowdevil
01-09-2003, 04:58 PM
From: Levi
Category: Category 1
Date: 12 Dec 2002
Time: 14:38:17 -0500
Remote Name: 67.1.69.22

Comments
Oliver, had the same concern myself. If you scroll down the board to about mid April of this year you will see some great discussion about this topic..."Tipi Cooking in Griz Country".
Take care! Levi

snowdevil
01-09-2003, 04:58 PM
From: OliverG
Category: Category 1
Date: 13 Dec 2002
Time: 10:36:50 -0500
Remote Name: 12.34.16.98

Comments
Thanks for the tip on the past posts. I checked them out and I guess I agree with the basic philosophy that we are at the top of the food chain (albeit with lead assistance). If I don't carry adequate firearms though (I don't have any, legality in certain areas, etc.), what are folks' thoughts as to the usefulness of alternatives such as pepper spray, flare guns (legal in parks?), etc.? I think my problem in Western PA and West-by-god-Virginia is one of way too human acclimatized black bears. I don't think my "scent" is going to deter them to any great degree (probably only serve to attract them). Are these bears detered by dogs at all? Powerful flashlights in conjunction with spray and flares? Or, do I just get properly equipped with a firearm? Obviously we're talking about rare occurences here but when prepared one does tend to sleep better (whilst remaining alert with attitude of course) <g>.
Thanks much,
Oliver...

snowdevil
01-09-2003, 04:59 PM
From: Dale Lindsley
Category: Category 1
Date: 13 Dec 2002
Time: 13:39:10 -0500
Remote Name: 128.95.144.158

Comments
In my limited experience as a kid in the Smokey Mts., a VERY small dog can run off even a VERY tame bear. Firecrackers are good too

snowdevil
01-09-2003, 04:59 PM
From: Tyde to Oliver
Category: Category 1
Date: 13 Dec 2002
Time: 18:14:42 -0500
Remote Name: 208.157.230.66

Comments
Oliver
I haven't posted in a while due to work, but here is my $0.04 (had a little experience) on bears and deterants.
1) Dogs are great. You want an overly protective, light sleeping, good at barking kind of dog. Rodesians, bouviers, akitas, and airdales are all good choices. But, a pug with an attitude will work in a pinch. You can also help in the noise deterant department (Pots and pans, Yelling, shouting, waving your hands and standing close together). As an aside, you are using the dog as a tool, and as such may have to use it as a sacrifice. I am not advocating feeding bears, I am just saying don't try and rescue the dog!!!!!!!
2) Peppar spray is extremely hazardous to the bear and you. Transportion to and from the field should be in a sealed ammo can located outside of the vehicle (preferably a trailer). Accidental discharge of spray will definately hit some one, most likely everyone. To use the bear has to be well in side of spitin' distance. Basically I would rely on some other deterant and leave the spray to tree huggers.
3) Fire arms goooood. 12 ga pump with an empty chamber, safety off, and decocked (all that is needed is to run the slide). Load it with 2 3/4" slugs (they cycle better), so a second shot is possible (allowing a warning shot, situation permitting).
4) Keep a clean camp. Food put away and hung, Gear packed, no eating on or in sleeping bag. Using the tent stove, stay away from or minimize the cooking of, greasey food (bacon, ham, stir fry, etc.).
5) Keep a low din of noise going at all time. With kids this should be easy.
Good luck and Good Hunting
Tyde
P.S. When going remote for work, I carry a Mossberg 500 Mariner with pistol grip (You only want to shoot in self defense, sort of smarts) loaded with 5 - 2.75" slugs. I make just enough noise (sing songs, wistle, humm, blow on my wistle) to be heard within 100' at all times. I pick foods with low smell and keep sealed in plastic bags

snowdevil
01-09-2003, 05:00 PM
From: Dave Roth to Oliver
Category: Category 1
Date: 14 Dec 2002
Time: 16:39:39 -0500
Remote Name: 209.92.60.109

Comments
hi Oliver....I was brought to my kness by the PA laws and I bought the sportsman handgun permit for $5. I hope the politicians spend it in good health! Sorry i'm still a little mad about it!
Any way....I take my hand gun with me when I camp(I call it coyote hunting!) But here's the deal...Where I take my family camping, there are many bears. Case closed. With the yearly increase in bear population in PA its only a matter of time before we start seeing people getting hurt.
I sleep better in my TIPI with a .357

I also did bear proof camping in Montana with the TIPI. Somewhere in th archives is a good post on how we camped amongst scores of bear scat piles and we remained scent free. the basic idea is that the stove is poertable even when lit and burning!
I removed it from the tipi and cooked at a location 100 yards way...It was aslo great for burning leftover food and waste...
Dave

snowdevil
01-09-2003, 05:00 PM
From: MikeM
Category: Category 1
Date: 18 Dec 2002
Time: 19:44:45 -0500
Remote Name: 64.33.161.4

Comments
Oliver, I had asked a similar question in March and got some terrific responses. You mentioned you went back and looked at some older posts. If you hadn't gone back this far, then look at April 21 for Tipi cooking, March 31 and 24 for Bears and light guns.

snowdevil
01-09-2003, 05:01 PM
From: Oz
Category: Category 1
Date: 22 Dec 2002
Time: 00:20:30 -0500
Remote Name: 209.161.167.187

Comments
Hi Oliver, I guess at this point in my life I've had fairly extensive experience with bears, both black and brown/grizzly. My experience is by far and away greater with the brown/griz, plus I've tried to glean as much as I can from friends and colleagues as to their trials and tribulations with these amazing critters. I know for sure that one of these days my number is going to come up and I'll probably have some sort of trouble with one of these guys. So far our (not just mine but a large number of friends and guides) philosophy has been to keep food where we can keep an eye on it, be it in the tent or just outside, we've cooked generally not in our sleeping tent(s) but in a cook tent, whatever type it may be. Sometimes the cook tent ends up doubling as the bunkhouse depending on logistics and type of hunt. Let me say right off that MOST bears here in AK, at least where we roam, have very little if any contact with humans so tend to be much different than human climatized bears. I know of only one instance of a couple of juvenile brown bears (the worst kind, they're like a couple of teenage boys with too much time on their hands) that tore up a camp of ours. Sure you hear stories of different instances from all sorts of folks but one has to consider the source of these and sort the fly turds out of the pepper as it were. We ALWAYS have LOTS of firepower available, and handguns are pretty much left at home. The guns run from .338 on up to .458, and a very special little friend in pistol grip 12ga. for the brush etc. An old friend thats guides MANY fishing trips, has for 20+ years on the same river, deals with lots of bears during his summers due to good fishing means good salmon runs so there are lots of bruins about says "...and anyone is crazy if they think I'm going to stash the food anywhere but in the tent I'm sleeping in. I'm going to protect it because my livlihood depends on the fact that my fishermen need to be fed well and taken care of. Putting it anywhere else is just giving it away". This guy is EXTREMELY afraid of bears and wants nothing to do with them, yet he still retains that attitude. Crazy? Maybe but when you're partway through a long float trip or 100 miles from nowhere and fuzzybritches steals your grub, things can get interesting. So- Have I cooked in my tipi? You betcha. Do I sleep in it too? Yup. Will I continue to do so in the future? Sure will, and not think twice about it either. I cook outside when I can and feel like it but usually it's inside 'cause the weather is crummy and the wind will blow a tarp into the next GMU. I guess a lot of this may be irrelevant for your situation but hope some of it helps. Best regards to all, Oz May you not have bears in your camps nor find me nuttier than your grandmas holiday fruitcake!!!!!!

Sundles
03-26-2003, 08:54 PM
A note on dogs and bears.

I know of a couple situations where the bear became mad enough at the dog to pursue it. The dog then became scared and ran right into the tent with the bear hot on its trail.

There is no substitute for a powerful firearm in bear country. I always carry (and have for 0ver 15 years) my 500 Linebaugh. Ive used it too.

Joe M
03-27-2003, 06:51 AM
From my experience the best way to avoid bear trouble is to go bear hunting. The only time I didn't see a bear on Kodiak was when I had a permit.

Rocket
03-27-2003, 04:00 PM
475 Linebaugh with 350 grain hard cast WFN. The very least Kimber 45 ACP with hard cast RN 230 grain or 44 mag with 310 grain WFN hard cast. Alwaya carry it hope you never have to use it.

Ed C
03-27-2003, 06:04 PM
Rocket
Do you really think a .45acp would take out a big bear? I shoot a Kimber and a SpringfieldArmory in matches, but we are shooting at bowling pins and steel plates. My buddie says it will work for bears, I told him I would rather have something bigger. Maybe with Buffalo Bore bullets I don't know.
Good Luck
Ed

Sundles
03-27-2003, 07:21 PM
Ed C,

When dealing with black bear, you may not need to kill it, only diswade it. Black bears are fairly easily turned while grizzlies are not. Normaly you'll need to kill the grizzly. For this reason, I would feel OK about using Buffalo Bore 45ACP+P 230gr. FMJFN (item no. 45230FMJ) I shoot this load regularly in my 1911's with a 20lb wolf conventional spring installed. I shoot these loads in my Glock 20 too. <a href="http://www.buffalobore.com" target="_blank">http://www.buffalobore.com (http://www.buffalobore.com)</a> When it comes to bear, more power is better, but Im pretty sure you can back him off with a double tap from the ol 45 with +P hard ball.

Jim N
03-27-2003, 07:51 PM
The most likely result of using the .45 would be a wounded bear for the next person in line to deal with. If you are not sure of the ability of your weapon to deliver a killing shot, it seems unethical or downright unwise to pack it around.

I like the Linebaugh idea far better.

Ed C
03-27-2003, 09:01 PM
Jim
I'm quite sure of the ability of my weapons. I said I shot bowling pins and steel plates. They do a heck of a job on bowling pins.
Ed

Ed C
03-27-2003, 09:25 PM
Sundles
Thanks for the information. I shoot the 1911's for fun at the speed shoot competitons with some elderly gentlemen about my age. We have had a running disscusion as to whether they would stop a grizzly or not. I'll have to try some of those loads. Kind of spendy for bowling pins, but a guy has to practice on something.
Ed

Sundles
03-28-2003, 04:35 AM
Ed C,

I just had another thought. The BBA 45ACP+P ammo uses a flash supressed powder. It has very little if any muzzle flash if you shoot it in the dark. This could be a huge advantage in your tent in the middle of the night.

jdb3
03-28-2003, 07:27 AM
Well, we had a fisherman kill a grizzly with a 9mm this past year on the Kenai Peninsula. While I do not recommend such a pistol for that use, it is better than a sharp stick. I carry a 480 Ruger for the last ditch effort. While in black bear country I normally carry either a 41 Mag or my 696 44 special. Either will stop a black bear so I would think that a 45 auto would also. The black bear will normally approach you slowly and try to intimidate you. It is easy to just shoot him a muzzle distance behind the head. All you have to do is let him get close enough! The griz will normally just run over you or charge and stand right on top of you. That can really be disturbing. Have fun. Just be sure of your shot, I don't want to be the next guy that runs into him. Jim

AbnMedOps
03-28-2003, 10:26 AM
Several years ago an aquaintance in Montana stepped around a berry bush and was confronted by an angry momma black bear, at a few paces. He empytied a semi-auto .22LR rifle (Ruger 10/22?) into her, from the waist, and she dropped at his feet. I don't recall details of shot placement, but I think it was mostly into the bear's face. A lot of good luck was involved. Not for the bear, though.

Sundles
03-28-2003, 02:51 PM
45 hardball penetrates like no tomorrow. It is already 45 cal., so it is making a big hole. The flat nosed (tuncated cone) version that BBA uses, seems to penetrate deeper and straighter than round nose ball ammo.

Ive shot several black bear with handguns. Most of them with a 500 Linebaugh, but Im not real impressed with how any handgun kills them. Pretty sure I could turn any black bear with 45 acp+P with 230gr. ball ammo though. He would be a miserable bear unitl he died or healed.

Rocket
03-29-2003, 05:01 AM
I have complete confidence in the 45 ACP +P hard cast and you have 10 rounds to do it in. Let's just say I can react in very tense situations hitting my mark with consitency and accuracy. I practice it.

I would even have confidence in my Kimber Ultra Carry in 40 S&amp;W to deter a bear . Not my first choice but it one heck of nice gun to carry light accurate and quick inot action and 7 rounds.

I would prefer my 44 mag 629 Comp Hunter with fiber optic sights loaded with stout loads 310 grain WFN hard cast. Or I would prefer my 475 Linebaugh with 355 grain WFN but I can tell you the Kimber will allow more rounds placed more accuratly than either of those two guns give me quantitiy and quality over one time quantity. Love the big bores but fact of life is one can practice with a semi auto and get many rounds inot a kill zone target before you can cock the hammer on the Linebaugh for the second round. The S&amp;W comp HUnter has better muzzle control but it recoils heavily as well. The slide absorbs a goodly protion of the recoil on semi auto that helps with muzzle control. As Mr. Sundles eluded too the DBL Tap is fast and can deter.

Now Grizzly bears give m a 375 HH cut short or my No.1 Ruger in 475 couse I can assure you I will put that bullet right betwee his lookers. good 12 gauge with slugs or the 45-70 with 16" BBL or 450 Marlin.

THat's what make this discussion great many many choices.

I would also like to adress one comment made about we owe to the animal to do it humanely and quickly. Right, if your hunting, but when they want to eat you all the rules go out the window, any you can get it done works.

Levi
03-31-2003, 06:15 AM
Been a revolver man most of my life, but checked out a Kimber Ultra Carry yesterday in the .45 and was very impressed. One thing the "guy behind the counter" at the gun shop told me was that if I intended to shoot +P loads in it that I would have to have a heavier spring put into the pistol. Guess in theory to absorb the additional pressure that is placed on the frame that is generated by the +P loads. I liked the gun, but not sure its worth the hassle/expense to change out the spring if I want to shoot some of Sundles +P loads. Would mainly be using factory ammunition for practice and plinking, but would also site in and carry the +P loads for when I hang out in grizzly country. Any advise from the board would be appreciated as to whether or not the changing of the springs is really necessary for this type of situation.
Thanks in advance!
Levi

Rocket
03-31-2003, 09:14 AM
I would change it. It is really easy to do. Ultra carry is one sweet gun. Get a good belt slide holster forward cant strong side carry and you won't even know your carrying it. I also encourage anyone to put at leat 500 rounds through thier gun before you feel 100% confident in relaible feeding of most ammo. Do not forget to put a drop of oil on the slides very 100 rounds ro so.

Ken
03-31-2003, 10:38 AM
Levi
This was Sundles' response to me when I asked about shooting his +p ammo through my Sig P220.

"I doubt there would be any problem. +P levels really aren't very high. +P levels are 21,000PSI versus 18,000PSI for standard 45 acp. WE have never heard of any one having troubles digesting the +P version through any type of gun. Regards, Tim"

I carry my Sig here in New York for blackie defense while camping. There is no "safety" to disengage on the gun, all you have to do is aim and fire. That, coupled with the Tritium night sights, make this pistol real handy in the event of a surprise encounter, before or after dark. You might want to check one out. They also make a P245, which is a little smaller and lighter, for concealed carry.

Levi
04-01-2003, 06:52 AM
Rocket and Ken, thanks for the comments. I agree Rocket, the Ultra Carry felt great...had a nice balance. Have looked at the Glocks before, but they never felt that comfortable. Most of which is attributed to my stubby fingers I would guess. Never have scene a P245. Will have to go down and look at one this week. Have heard the Glocks are a great guns that can take a real beating. If the P245 has a good feel I'll be in dilema...Ultra Carry or Glock? Thanks again for the advise.
Levi

Ken
04-01-2003, 11:29 AM
Levi-
Sig's and Glocks are not the same pistol. Here's the link for the Sig. http://www.sigarms.com/products/classiccompactsize-models.asp?product_id=38&amp;product_name=P245
I used to work for a guy that had short fingers and he didn't care for the feel of the Sigs...you might not like them yourself, but it's worth a look. Good luck.

Rocket
04-01-2003, 04:15 PM
Another thing that impresses me with the Ultra Cary is that the recoil is far less than i expected it was very mangable and rapid fire drills were far easier than I thought they would be.

Sigs are nice guns but the Kimber stainless and AL frame will handle the foul weather better as well. As you can tell i ma big proponant of the Kimber guns they are bay far one of the most accurate out of the box guns made here in the good ole USA. Yeah Made in the USA it matters to me more and more these days.

Ken
04-01-2003, 04:34 PM
Sig makes a Stainless version of the 220, but not the 245. Here's an interesting article on the accuracy of the 220...after 10,000 rounds in ONE day...not too bad for a $700 pistol... http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootingtimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=1230

I will say one thing about the Kimbers...I've never heard anybody that owns one complain about it.

Ed C
04-01-2003, 09:08 PM
Springfieldarmory made in USA. I have a Kimber Custom Target and a Springfield Longslide. Tough call I think I like the Springfield better. They sure are fun to shoot.

Ed