Kifaru Rifle-Building Class!

[Timberline]

CCH and I have been kicking an idea around lately, and we’d like to run that idea by the Kifaru family to judge potential interest and solicit YOUR comments.

The Background Behind the Idea

This whole thing started when Chris (CCH) and I were discussing the hassles typically involved in creating a personalized rifle – one in which the length of pull is just right, the weight is correct, the recoil pad is perfect, the stock is maybe even of our own choice, the trigger is light and crisp, the barrel length is just so and on and on. The often-bumpy route to such a rifle usually begins with the search for a reliable and suitably-skilled gunsmith, followed by months of waiting for the project to be completed - hopefully as ordered - while saving every dollar possible so as to be able to afford the whole farmed-out endeavor in the first place.

What we concluded is that we wish we knew how to do most of those things ourselves!

At the very least, we wish we knew how to properly modify existing rifle stocks for a better personalized fit and/or take factory barreled-actions and properly fit them into new, carefully-selected aftermarket rifle stocks. To be even more specific, we wish we knew how to properly cut old rifle stocks to a new length, properly install new recoil pads, properly adjust stock inletting and properly bed old and new rifle stocks.

The more we thought about it, the more we began asking ourselves, “Why not?” Why not learn how to do all of those things, and maybe more?

The Idea for a Rifle-Building Class

What Chris and I began to wonder is would it be possible to find a gunsmith or some sort of qualified instructor, say in the Denver area, who would be able and willing to conduct a “Rifle-Building Class” for a small group of Kifaru gun nuts.

In our enthusiasm we even began to jot down the sort of basic elements that might make up such a class:

• Cutting existing rifle stocks (wood and synthetic) to a new length
• Proper fitting and installation of recoil pads on wood and synthetic rifle stocks
• Proper installation of sling studs
• Proper inletting of barreled-actions into new rifle stocks (particularly semi-inletted synthetic stocks)
• The proper bedding of barreled-actions into existing or brand new rifle stocks
• Stock finishing (particularly synthetic stocks)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/TimberlineX/GlassBedaRifle.jpg

We supposed that other, more even advanced topics might also be of interest in this or additional classes:

• Adjusting trigger pull-weight
• New-trigger installation
• Bolt maintenance and modifications
• Slicking up actions
• Insuring proper cartridge feeding
• Barrel-length cutting and re-crowning
• Re-barreling
• Metal finishes

Questions for YOU

Obviously there would be lots of details that would have to be worked out before such a class could take place. But at this point in the idea’s development, we have a few simply questions for you.

1. Would YOU be interested in attending such a “rifle-building” class?
2. What time of year would you think best for such a class.
3. What sorts of things would you personally like to learn and do in such a class?
4. Do you have any ideas on who we might get to host and teach such a class?

And no, we don’t yet have any idea what the fee for such a class might be or exactly how long the class might run. Every effort would be made to make the class affordable and our initial thoughts involve a timeframe that encompasses a single weekend.

Please respond to this post with your answers to the above very preliminary questions, and with any additional thoughts or ideas you might have on this subject. At this point, we are simply trying to judge interest and solicit your input.

Give It Some Thought

Recently there has been a lot of very good discussion on this forum pertaining to the formal rifle- and handgun-handling classes that various Kifaru forum members have attended this summer. Those classes clearly improved the firearms handling capabilities of their participants.

What’s also interesting is that a fair number of those participants raced out after those classes to improve the fit and function of their rifles.

This proposed, possible class would have the objective of enabling its participants to make those sorts of everyday rifle improvements all on their own with whatever practical, target or hunting rifles they possessed or could dream up. There is something very special about properly customizing and personalizing a rifle for your own use or, say, for the use of your children. To be able to make those changes yourself, and to do them properly, would be both extraordinary and satisfying.

Wouldn’t it be great to be able to build a rifle like this Winchester M70 Featherweight in a McMillan Edge stock….and do it all of your own? To help us explore this idea, please answer the above questions. Thanks.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/TimberlineX/WinchesterFeatherweightinEdgeStock2.jpg

[colohunter303]

Sounds fun and very useful. I feel it would be tough to get any non retired gunsmith to teach such a class since you'd be essentially taking away prospective jobs for him but maybe a retired smith would be willing to mentor a group of aspiring smiths.

[kutenay]

My buddies and I can and do quite a lot of what you are asking about and I have a dozen+ different rifles which we have "customized" to a greater or lesser extent. It is easy to learn to do a GOOD bedding job and to finish stocks, wood or synthetic and changing barrels is not that difficult on bolt rifles, I have assisted with doing some of mine and understand the basic process.

The major problem here, IMHO, is the cost of tooling for doing this work and also space in one's home. Painting and bedding and epoxy-oil finishing stocks is a messy business and takes space and I just do not have the room in my little, old house for this plus my pb Rottweilers, the "light of my life".

So, in the past couple of years, I have "farmed out" my work, but, have bedded about 20 of my own bolt rifles in past years, finished stocks and done other mods. to make them suit MY uses more precisely.

I think that your concept is a VERY viable and valuable one and will enjoy seeing it come to fruition here; I wish I could participate and given the worldclass gunsmithing schools you have in Colorado, I should think that you will be able to locate an appropriate instructor.

If, I were younger and had space, I would take a basic 'smithing course and buy some tooling, so, that I could build my own bolt rifles and thus have as many as I "need" done exactly as I like them. As, it is, I am fortunate to have gunmaker Ralf Martini here and a couple of guys who work both with him and on their own, part time, to build really intriguing "mountain rifles" and, this will do me.

Good luck, it is a really neat concept.

[41magfan]

Just for the sake of discussion, the concept for your idea has been done successfully by Bill Laughridge (Cylinder & Slide) for a number of years now. His various gunsmithing classes are conducted at his business location in Nebraska and at various off-site locations with local sponsorship.

The idea Bill uses is that you build a concept gun as your training for the course. In the 1911 pistolsmithing classes for example, you start with the basic components and you build a custom pistol from scratch. You not only learn how to do the work, but you end up with a finished product as well. In many cases, over half of your tuition costs are amortized in some sense by getting to build a pistol worth many hundreds of dollars.

That format might be something to think about in pursuing this endeavor.

[CCH]

41magfan, that is exactly the concept we were talking about. You go in with an unfinished stock and do all the work yourself to walk out with something customized for your rifle (the things that can be done in two days that is, the knowledge to do the rest on your own). I'd imagine that the painting would be a demonstration thing that is completed later due to time constraints and logistics. I don't know how long bedding takes to set up. Maybe that is a last thing Saturday task that is ready to go on Sunday morning? Cutting, shaping, drilling, inletting, etc. can be done during class I'd imagine depending on tool availability (see below) for the number of participants.

Another consideration is location and tools. I'm willing to bet that a bunch of folks here have a combined set of tools that we'd need. For example I have a Dremel and what I believe is a suitable bench sander for shaping recoil pads although I'd want an expert opinion on that. Frankly, I suspect that we probably have a bunch of posters with some or all of the knowledge required that when combined would cover everything Timberline has mentioned, especially a stock specific class.

I think this class would have a lot of value, especially for guys who change rifles like they change pants (you know who you are) :D, and in my case for a guy with two kids who would like to be able to modify guns as needed to suit their stature. It's MUCH easier to find deals and variety when it comes to full-size guns than it is with youth specific models. Converting to youth sized could really make this a money saver for someone like me. Being able to do my own is gravy as there is always that "something" that I'd like modified to suit my tastes. Unlike Timberline, I don't want a 13.75" length of pull on my hunting rifle when wearing hunting clothes and pack. Finally the ability to buy an unfinished quality glass stock in the $250 range vs. a $600 Edge (with all the options I want) makes a lot of sense.

[41magfan]

More food for thought .......this guy conducts on-site classes on how to produce his own line of rifles for $1k over the price of the gun.

http://www.gradousrifles.com/index.php

[CCH]

So spend $1,000 more to make it yourself than to have him make it ($3,750 for a hunting rifle)? I understand the "give a man a fish, teach him to fish" analogy, but ouch! That is sort of high end I think for what Timberline and I were contemplating. This is more of a DIY stock set up sort of thing than ultimate custom rifle class.

[41magfan]

So spend $1,000 more to make it yourself than to have him make it ($3,750 for a hunting rifle)? I understand the "give a man a fish, teach him to fish" analogy, but ouch! That is sort of high end I think for what Timberline and I were contemplating. This is more of a DIY stock set up sort of thing than ultimate custom rifle class.

Yea, me too - I was throwing that out for entertainment value more than anything ....

It did make me contemplate the idea that perhaps a local/regional gunsmith could be contracted to put on a class to cover the majority of the topics the participants wanted.

[elmbow]

Bansners and Carbelites come with great instructions, Accra glass comes with great instructions, recoil pad jigs come with great instructions, aftermarket triggers come with great instructions, Power Custom free spin pawls do, Wolff Spring kits do, Brownell's dovetail cutting files and checkering kits do, along with Linspeed, Rottenstone, Cerrosafe, heck, even spray cans of Crinkle paint have instructions on them....... Unless one wants to get into serious metal work then there's no need for lathes and mills and such. A good drill press, vice, hand held drills, Dremels, disc or belt sanders, stuff that many people already own, will get the job done. There's no end of stuff on the internet that details bedding of mausers, Remingtons, Winchesters, etc. Same applies to smoothing triggers of lever guns, replacing Miroku rebounding hammers on '86's, IOW, the info is out there if you're willing to do some research or pony up for some books and dvd's. I think a one week class could be fun, but mostly you'll just be watching someone else do the work, unless you can rent a high school shop that's setup to accommodate 25 people working on projects all at the same time. If attending such a class motivates you to go home and commit to being your own best gunsmith, then I think the class idea is ok, but, $500 buys a lot of gunsmithing books and tools.

[sab]

Bansners and Carbelites come with great instructions, Accra glass comes with great instructions, recoil pad jigs come with great instructions, aftermarket triggers come with great instructions, Power Custom free spin pawls do, Wolff Spring kits do, Brownell's dovetail cutting files and checkering kits do, along with Linspeed, Rottenstone, Cerrosafe, heck, even spray cans of Crinkle paint have instructions on them....... Unless one wants to get into serious metal work then there's no need for lathes and mills and such. A good drill press, vice, hand held drills, Dremels, disc or belt sanders, stuff that many people already own, will get the job done. There's no end of stuff on the internet that details bedding of mausers, Remingtons, Winchesters, etc. Same applies to smoothing triggers of lever guns, replacing Miroku rebounding hammers on '86's, IOW, the info is out there if you're willing to do some research or pony up for some books and dvd's. I think a one week class could be fun, but mostly you'll just be watching someone else do the work, unless you can rent a high school shop that's setup to accommodate 25 people working on projects all at the same time. If attending such a class motivates you to go home and commit to being your own best gunsmith, then I think the class idea is ok, but, $500 buys a lot of gunsmithing books and tools.

+1 - I've been a DIYer for decades, and none of the work in gunsmithing is rocket science. Patience, basic mechanical aptitude, and a good set of instructions goes a LONG way. Brownell's is a great source for both gunsmithing equipment and gunsmithing books, advice, etc.

Scott

[Steelworker]

Considering my recent (as in last seven years) financial situation, I would be more than willing to drop some bucks if it meant learning a new trade whereby I could actually bring in some income! Secondly, it's exactly the thing I've been looking to do, as I've always been a bit of a perfectionist (sometimes to my wife's chagrin), like to tinker, enjoy firearms, and these all seem to be important assets for a gunsmith. It would also give me a reason and the finances to finally move out west. What's not to like?

Count me in. With CCH and Timberline involved, how can it fail?

A similar one week Vicker's class for the 1911 is roughly $5K, all told. Something to consider.

1. Would YOU be interested in attending such a “rifle-building” class?
2. What time of year would you think best for such a class.
3. What sorts of things would you personally like to learn and do in such a class?
4. Do you have any ideas on who we might get to host and teach such a class?


1. Yes.
2. Any time. Might have a few weeks next April and August that are unavailable, but that's it.
3. All the things you listed, including the additional items.
4. We have an excellent riflesmith locally. I can contact him if you are interested.

[CCH]

A full toolbox does not make me a gunsmith and while you can indeed learn much from books, you can also learn a lot from hands on instruction particularly if your general abilities aren't as strong. Some already have more tool know how in a general sense and it's not a big leap to apply it to what they read in a book to more specialized projects. Others of us, not so much.

[Smokepole]

1. Would YOU be interested in attending such a “rifle-building” class?
2. What time of year would you think best for such a class.
3. What sorts of things would you personally like to learn and do in such a class?
4. Do you have any ideas on who we might get to host and teach such a class?


1) Yes

2) Dead of winter, after hunting season.

3) The topics you listed, including the advanced stuff especially.

4) There's a guy who used to have a shop in Englewood, on Broadway. He retired probably 4-5 years ago, his name is Ike (or Ikey) Starks I believe.

[rayporter]

i would certainly like to, however my klutz factor might rule me out.

[Steelworker]

Ikey Starks? Ikey Starks of the old Sports West fame? Is he still around? Chuck Taylor put me on to him M-A-N-Y years ago and Starks subsequently built us a few 1911's. Not in the same league as Williams, Christensen, Rogers, Yost, etc., (or even Rich Aldis for that matter) but he could probably give us some beginning stuff. I still have a 1911 he did and it's okay -- it goes bang everytime and always has, it's phenomenally accurate and only failed to eject once with an underloaded round (and using a heavy recoil spring). However, the checkering on this pistol was not put on straight and the blueing on the slide is more of a purple color. Having said that, this particular pistol has been as durable and reliable over many thousands and thousands of rounds as any Glock I've ever used. Sort of a mixed bag, but the bottom line is, it shoots. Another pistol he did for me went full auto back when I was a reserve officer for a county police department and special firearms instructor. It was a most embarassing moment, as you can probably guess. (The cyclic rate on a full auto 1911 is incredible!) On another occasion I ordered hand made ivory grips for a Ruger SA and when I finally got them they were NOT real ivory (!!!) and that, after a very long wait. Needless to say, these experiences forced us to finally move on, but as with all things, YMMV.

[Smokepole]

He bedded a couple of rifles for me, one of 'em is my most accurate rifle.

Never had him work on any pistols.

Sounds like it may not be best to hire him for the pistol-building class.

[Take-a-knee]

Steelworker, the disconnector on your 45 was likely the culprit that caused it to go cyclic. I've always heard 50.000 rds was a long life for a 1911 disconnector, and you don't know it's bad until it goes belt fed on you. So, it really may not have been the guy's fault, unless the owner/customer specced all new parts.

[Steelworker]

TAK, the pistol that went full auto was fairly new and had less than two or three thousand rounds through it, so I don't think that's what happened, but we'll never know for sure. (We're talking circa 1982.) I sent it in and they said they found nothing wrong with it, but since it never happened again, I suspect they changed out some parts.

As an aside, the group size was remarkably good, as the pistol fired so fast that by the time the pistol was in full recoil, it was done shooting, so all the shots went into a surprisingly small group. It was also fortunate that it only happened that once and it was on our department's indoor range and not on the street. I don't remember the recoil being any different. In truth, it happened so fast that it was over before you realized what actually happened. I've never shot a subgun that came even close to this in cyclic rate, though some MAC 10's are probably right there with it.

Ikey did some very good work and some not so good work. In a gunsmith, I prefer it all to be excellent, considering the money and time you have into it and the reason behind getting it done in the first place.

That's my primary reason for wanting to learn gunsmithing. If I plan to work on someones firearm, I intend to put myself into it as if it were my own. Actually, I'd do better than if it were my own. I come from an old Scots-Irish family that passed along an ideal that when your name is on something, it represents your whole family, not just you. Therefore, you always strive to do it right. Don Williams is a man like that and is one reason he builds my 1911's (or did -- I'm migrating away from them and toward M&P's and maybe even a P30S if they ever come out with the cocked and locked variant of it).

I'd love to learn to build custom rifles or even custom pistols or both. I'm sick and tired of committing to a rondezvous or visiting someone out west and then have to cancel at the last minute because of money issues/unexpected bills, etc.. I miss the money I made in management in the steel industry. It was darn good -- though I don't miss the steel industry! :-) It's time I learned a new trade that is fairly "downsize proof" and doesn't put my career into the hands of people who simply don't care about anyone but themselves.

[elmbow]

......I'd love to learn to build custom rifles or even custom pistols or both. I'm sick and tired of committing to a rondezvous or visiting someone out west and then have to cancel at the last minute because of money issues/unexpected bills, etc.. I miss the money I made in management in the steel industry. It was darn good -- though I don't miss the steel industry! :-) It's time I learned a new trade that is fairly "downsize proof" and doesn't put my career into the hands of people who simply don't care about anyone but themselves.

I think you need more than a week in the backyard Steelworker. I looked into gunsmithing schools when I retired but decided against it, because the good schools are all resident and at least one year.

I hear the Colorado school of trades is one of the better schools. http://www.schooloftrades.com/

And also Yavapai College in Prescott. http://www.gunsmithing.org/programs.htm

I might add, that if one is serious about making a living as a gunsmith, I'd budget at used prices, about $50K for machinery and tools. A commercially zoned location for the shop might also be a requirement.

[flamingo 7]

BLUF, the Short answers,

1. Would YOU be interested in attending such a “rifle-building” class? Yup
2. What time of year would you think best for such a class. Spring Break or very early summer. That might put some out of work school shops in play.
3. What sorts of things would you personally like to learn and do in such a class? I think your selection of the initial stock work is a good place to start. Additionally, slicking up actions, feeding problems, recrowning, trigger solutions, scope mounting, current metal finishes (theory, not practice), and a general discussion of barrels.
4. Do you have any ideas on who we might get to host and teach such a class? Cal Johnston from the recently closed Shooting Den?

That’s the short answers. The amateur can do almost anything. Looking back at some of the guns built in the 40’s & 50’s by amateurs (and some made today) shows a remarkable level of quality in some ( and an equally remarkable level of foolishness in others). Elmbow is right in saying there is a remarkable level of information available on line and in various books widely available. What a class like this provides is the answers not available in the directions, when things go from oops to ####! An instructor for a class like this is valuable for his experience at the bench. A good many of the folks here have done much of the stuff noted, but it’s when things go wrong, that good advice is priceless (I said GOOD advice, there is plenty of advice to be had for free). Your initial subjects,

• Cutting existing rifle stocks (wood and synthetic) to a new length
• Proper fitting and installation of recoil pads on wood and synthetic rifle stocks
• Proper installation of sling studs
• Proper inletting of barreled-actions into new rifle stocks (particularly semi-inletted synthetic stocks)
• The proper bedding of barreled-actions into existing or brand new rifle stocks
• Stock finishing (particularly synthetic stocks)

could be completed in a weekend, though bedding and finishing are time consuming items. Adding additional subjects would expand it sharply, and I think you could cover an awful lot pf practical in three to five days. As to the value of the class? That depends on the students & instructor. I would note however that the American Custom Gunsmiths Guild has offered seminars on several of these same subjects at their annual meetings over the years, so there must be somethin’ to this learnin stuff. In my humble opinion they are the cream of the crop and take a back seat to no one. The Golden Age of Gunmaking is not past it’s here. An amateur can do almost anything, but you must be ready to pay the price, and it’s not all in $.

[KurtB]

Buddy of mine just paid $1100 for some custom work on a 6.5x55 Swede. That included $450 for a Mcmillan stock, $330 for a hart barrel and the $320 included labor from a gunsmith I hugely respect to chamber, thread, bed, touch up the lugs and adjust trigger. For me it is not worth learning to do all that stuff as labor is running about 30% of the total cost of the builds I like. For others working with improving factory rigs, it may be very worth it.

[Smokepole]

For others working with improving factory rigs, it may be very worth it.

Yup, that'd be me. I like to think I can do everything I need to do with a factory rig.

[CCH]

I find myself agreeing with Smokepole again. I'm going to bed to try to get over that. ;)

[GlennGTR]

I would love to attend a rifle tweaking class. Learn how to maximiz the factory rifle, so to speak.

[KurtB]

Another class option, not to sidetrack this, might be around handloading. I've picked up a couple of lefty factory rifles which with no tinkering are shooting quite well with handloads developed for them. I've reloaded a lot, but still consider myself a novice. Just a thought.