Do YOU Like Laminated Rifle Stocks?

[Timberline]

Plenty of factory rifles have been and are today offered with laminated-wood rifle stocks. Plenty of shooters love them, citing stock strength, stock stability, weather resistant and a modernistic look and feel. Others grumble about the weight of such stocks and make mumbled references to plywood.

But what do you think? Do you like laminated rifle stocks? Do you like the performance characteristics of laminated rifle stocks? Do you like the way they look?

Below is a nifty little Remington Custom Shop M7 in .350 Remington Magnum with a full-length laminated stock - a dark-timber elk thumper that proved a joy to carry and shoot.

Do you have any photos of your laminated-stock rifles? What’s been your experience with them? Mostly, what do you think of laminated-wood stocks?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/TimberlineX/ModelSevenMS1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/TimberlineX/ModelSevenMSShooting.jpg

[Smokepole]

In a word, no.

[Huntsman22]

timberline, i don't mumble when i call 'em plywood, I say it loud enuff for all to hear. they are maybe more stable than solid wood, when it comes to humidity/moisture changes, but as a carpenter that works with wood I have come to like NATURAL beauty. One of my plywood ones is painted, the one Patrick gave me will stay as he give it.....

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c124/huntsman22/guns/IMG_2352-1.jpg

[Tracy]

I agree with Huntsman22. I've always said the laminated stocks look like glorified plywood. They are. Many a guy has puffed up at the comment and gone over the merits of that type of stock, but throughout history guns have survived quite a lot with a classic wood stock.

You can call it a "girl thing" if you like, but I want my guns to be pretty to look at as well as functional. A laminated stock just isn't pretty IMO and I'd be embarrassed to own one. If I feel the need in the future for something a bit more weatherproof, I'll likely go with a composite stock, but never laminated.

[elmbow]

No, nyet, la, nej.

[Jason]

timberline, i don't mumble when i call 'em plywood, I say it loud enuff for all to hear. they are maybe more stable than solid wood, when it comes to humidity/moisture changes, but as a carpenter that works with wood I have come to like NATURAL beauty.


VERY well said Huntsman. My dad and I have loudly been calling 'em plywood guns since we bought our first ones over ten years ago. It's actually a handy shorthand we use, because we know exactly which rifle's we're talking about when we refer to them---------"the plywood .22s, the plywood .223, .243, or .22-250." All I can add to what you've said is that at least they've got a little more character than the cheaper synthetics do.

[Smokepole]

You can call it a "girl thing" if you like, but I want my guns to be pretty to look at as well as functional. A laminated stock just isn't pretty IMO and I'd be embarrassed to own one.

Nah, it's not a girl thing, but you go, girl.

[Sawtooth]

I'm with Smokepole and others here...I don't really care for lam stocks either. Give me a really nice piece of wood, or give me plastic.

[Huntsman22]

I been told that they are prone to recoil split, too.....

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c124/huntsman22/guns/c52e165a.jpg

[ryanusmc]

I don't but my girlfriend does. She had a ruger stainless compact that she thought was a prettiest thing ever. 2 things may have played a part in that opinion; 1 she's new in the firearm world, and 2. She just has a weird sense of what looks good and what doesn't. ;)

[SLG]

Not usually, but that M7 looks pretty nice. That old 660 or 600 you have looks nice as well, and I do prefer the bigger pieces of laminate like it has.

[elmbow]

I don't but my girlfriend does. She had a ruger stainless compact that she thought was a prettiest thing ever. 2 things may have played a part in that opinion; 1 she's new in the firearm world, and 2. She just has a weird sense of what looks good and what doesn't. ;)

Does that apply to the men in her life too?

[CCH]

I have had exactly one rifle with a laminated stock and didn't have it long enough to give it an expert evaluation. It was on a Ruger MKII 77 in .338 Win Mag. I thought it looked nice with the stainless rifle and it certainly looked WAY better than the boat paddle option available at the time. Personally I like the looks, especially with stainless. If you're willing to spray paint palm fronds on plastic, I think that may test your aesthetic judgment credibility. Just sayin'...

Have never heard of the splitting but Don has the photo there to show it, so perhaps that is a concern. Then again, Don has been known to have some amazing flukes in the rifle destruction department. :D

As to performance, my understanding is that they are stronger and more stable than wood but probably heavier in identical stocks. I'd imagine they are stiffer than the lower end plastic stocks found on factory rifles. I certainly wouldn't pick one over a good fiberglass stock because of the weight difference. Then again, an almost drop in laminate can be had for about $100 while fiberglass goes $500. However, I've been told by a knowledgeable fellow not to get get too caught up in stock snobbishness as many of the cheap factory stocks work very well, then again they don't offer much weight savings.

I don't like all the crazy colors. Boyd's nutmeg (brown like Timberline's .350) works for me. Richard's Microfit makes some nice ones too.

[Ralph]

There are some mechanical advantages to laminates. The flashy look can be reduced by using strips of similar colored wood rather than the contrasting colors commonly used.

Glue-Lam beams used in construction are extremely strong, lightweight and fire-resistant. Since the beam can be made any size you wish wooden construction can be used rather than steel for many applications. Glue-Lam beams also don't rust or corrode so they require less mantenance. Wooden bridges have been demonstrated to be stiffer than steel bridges. There is a covered bridge in NH that very much exceeds the requirements for similar sized bridges on the interstate highway system.

Carefully made with the right glue and finish no laminate stock should split due to recoil. I don't like the flashy look but would have no problem with solid color laminates.

[snakey2]

I don't own one but wouldn't hesitate if I was in the market and it was the right gun at the right price.

[Smokepole]

If you're willing to spray paint palm fronds on plastic, I think that may test your aesthetic judgment credibility. Just sayin'...

You see, that right there shows your lack of knowledge and understanding of the issue here.

If you have a plastic stock, anything goes, even the pink and purple swirly patterns. Because it's plastic--it'll never have soul. So who cares what it looks like? It's the physical properties of fiberglass/carbon fiber/plastic you're after--stability, weight, resistance to moisture and warping, etc.

But if you're gonna go with wood, go with real wood. You don't go with wood because of its strength of construction, durabilty, or any of that stuff, you go with wood because of it's inherent beauty or the tradition of walnut.

Trying to make a wood stock that approximates the physical properties of synthetics is like the old saw about a dog walking on it's hind legs. When you see it, you don't remark on how well the dog walks, you wonder why he does it at all.

[elmbow]

"At's right Smokeple. If aesthetics is your bag, walnut and blued steel rule. If all things practical drive you, it's syn and SS all the way. There is no in between for glue lam beams. I can't believe I'm even admitting to it, but I bought one of those 673's when they came out. It holds the record as being the shortest lived rifle in my safe.

[CCH]

Smoke, as much as I enjoy Purple Haze, I'll have to leave you to your pink and purple swirly patterns. However, given your open mindedness regarding color, I think you owe it to yourself to consider all the wonder that is laminate. Here's a "Rainbow" model so you can stand loud and proud. :D Tossed in something purplish too since that seems to float your boat as well.

http://cch.smugmug.com/photos/949756700_hf2fK-M.jpg

http://cch.smugmug.com/photos/949756713_cGXTx-M.jpg

[Smokepole]

Now hold on there Mr. Elton John Fan Club sergeant-at-arms. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I didn't say I personally owned any swirly stocks. All mine are in the OD/Khaki range.

[CCH]

Elton was more from your generation. Smoke's latest shooting glasses tinted to match his stock:

http://cch.smugmug.com/Other/Info/eltonjohn-728454/949828296_7Sbyg-M.jpg


Seriously, I'm sort of surprised at the amount of vitriol inspired by laminated stocks. Now faux wood plastic stocks I do hate. They are truly plastic masquerading as wood and not doing a very good job at it. Laminates are wood, just not a solid chunk. That isn't artificial grain in them. I really like Timberline's .350 that started this whole thing off. Always have. Pretty and functional. I envy that. I'm none of that former and barely the latter.

[Smokepole]

Seriously, I'm sort of surprised at the amount of vitriol inspired by laminated stocks.

Well, I can understand that, having been to your house and seen the living room set, all done up in genuine Naugahyde.

[CCH]

Don't go knocking the furniture. That's the wife's department and you do NOT want to get on her bad side. Don't forget your pack is still here and she knows where it is. Besides, we need stain resistant furniture if you're coming over. That wasn't naugahyde, it was just a plastic cover to protect it from you. We bought it when Westy started dining over.

[Smokepole]

You let him eat inside?

[CCH]

He generally brings wine.

[Ken]

...LOL...interesting thread....haha...

Plywood stocks???...LOVE 'EM...can't stand and have yet to buy a plastik stocked gun as much as I realize the benifits therof. There ARE a couple .223's that have my eye AND are plastik stocked, but so far I have resisted temptation. (read: I have not yet been cleared by the accounting dept. to purchase one....:D)

In the mean time I'll keep my fingers crossed for plywood stocked varients in case such funds become allocated.

[ryanusmc]

Does that apply to the men in her life too?

...hmmm your picked that up huh? ;)

[Smokepole]

He generally brings wine.

In a box, no doubt.

[41magfan]

Setting aside all the passions of traditionalism, I think laminates have done a reasonable job of bridging the gap between wood and synthetics. Laminates have the look and feel of wood with the stability attributes of synthetics – nothing more, nothing less.

The framework of similar discussions reminds me a bit of the leather versus kydex debate. When I hold a Dakota Arms rifle or a Mitch Rosen holster in my hands, I can fully appreciate the aesthetic qualities of wood and leather, but neither materials are ideal for every application.

Just one man’s opinion …..

[CCH]

In a box, no doubt.

Nope, that's what we have. He brings bottles so I have to search for a corkscrew.

[elmbow]

Nope, that's what we have. He brings bottles so I have to search for a corkscrew.

Thunderbird has a cork?

[Timberline]

This has been an interesting debate on the merits versus the cosmetics of laminated stocks. Strong points have been made for both sides.

The Remington M7MS I showed at the beginning of this thread is the only rifle I’ve ever owned with a laminated stock. I must confess that while I thoroughly enjoyed the feel and shootability of that particular rifle, I never could quite warm up to the laminated look of its stock, and I often found myself wishing it were a single piece of walnut.

It also seems to me that a laminated stock looks better to my eyes (read more acceptable) with a stainless steel rifle as opposed to a more traditional blued rifle. Somehow the flashy stainless seems to mate better with the equally showy laminate. YMMV, but that’s what I see, although I’m certainly not rushing out to buy any laminate-stocked rifles.

Of course, there are variations on laminated rifle stocks that are maybe more acceptable, some much more acceptable.

Kilimanjaro Rifles (previously called Serengeti Rifles) offers what they call “Stealth Lamination,” in which they use Select Grade Turkish Walnut, cut and then laminated together to preserve the beauty of the wood while significantly strengthening it. It’s shockingly expensive but strikingly beautiful. You would have to look very close to see that a Kilimanjaro rifle was laminated. See below.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/TimberlineX/Kilimanjaro-African-Rifle-In-375-HnH1.jpg

Here's a link to Kilimanjaro: http://www.serengetirifles.com/custom-rifles/kilimanjaro.html

Yet another laminated variation was utilized in the mid-1960s by Remington with its Model 600 Magnum rifle. With that rifle, Remington made use of wider-than-normal laminations of walnut and beech to create a unique laminated effect. I always personally found the resulting effect (and that rifle) attractive, although it certainly received mixed reviews at the time.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/TimberlineX/Remington600M085-1.jpg

Would a laminated rifle stock be more acceptable to you today if it utilized the Remington M600 Magnum wide-lamination style?

What do you think about the Kilimanjaro-style laminated stocks?

Here's another photo of the Remington M600 Magnum stock.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/TimberlineX/Remington600M061.jpg

[Smokepole]

Would a laminated rifle stock be more acceptable to you today if it utilized the Remington M600 Magnum wide-lamination style?

You mean, 3/4" plywood vs. 1/4" plywood? Actually, if I was forced to accept a laminated stock, I'd go thinner.

As for the Serengetti-style lamination, it does look nice.

[CCH]

Maybe it's my traditional archery background that makes laminated stocks palatable. Go look at custom bows and let me know if being laminated equates with being ugly and a poor replica of "real" wood. Of course if you carry a bow that looks like it belongs to Buck Rogers, you might not get it. ;)

For example: http://www.greatplainsbow.com/bmodel_takedown.htm

[41magfan]

With necessity being the mother of invention, I think innovation in laminated stock designs will only increase as time goes by, since decent wood is getting harder and harder to come by - at reasonable prices, anyway.

The Serengeti example is the direction I think you'll see laminate innovation going - laminates made of quality hardwood veneers. I suspect there's a lot of quality wood out there that can't be had in solid 5-7 inch dimensions - but in a thinner dimension would work acceptably well in a laminated design.

There was a company out there once - dont' recall the name - that was making synthetics that looks liked wood - printed film technology, maybe? The example I saw still needed some work - it was neither fish or fowl.

[Koop]

Does the Czech VZ-58 stock count? It's plywood MEANT to look like plywood. :D

I kinda appreciate that kind of brazen honesty in a stock.

[Scoutin' Wyo]

I hope to be posting a picture this fall of my plywood stock resting on the rib cage of a stud antelope and after that a big desert mulie! ;) Do ya think old Huntsman will like the looks of it then?

[elmbow]

How about that super impregnated stuff they use in expensive kitchen cutlery? Maccassar Ebony for example. Sawdust and glue, but hey, it would probably stanch recoil a mite and wouldn't have none of those strips.

[CCH]

I believe the Serengeti stock is not the only of its kind and the one I recall came about for the exact reason 41magfan suggested. Quality, fancy wood blanks have become increasingly rare and correspondingly expensive. The ability to take much thinner pieces of wood and combine them to make a beautiful (yeah, that's what I said) wood stock makes sense, especially when it comes to higher end rifles where such wood is expected or at least desired. Those laminated stocks are NOT cheap but if you compared them to a solid wood stock with the same figure, the price would quickly come into perspective.

"sawdust and glue" sounds a lot like factory composite stocks. Just substitute plastic grindings for the sawdust.

[KurtB]

The laminates I have used have been universally heavy and one on a Ruger 338 actually split in the pistol grip from Federal High Energy loads. I'll talk laid up fiberglass these days. Light, stiff, ugly and very functional.

And the wide lamination, really bugs me, ymmv.

[CCH]

That's two split stocks on this modest (participant wise) board itself. I find that as cause for concern. Wonder if this is an issue from a particular manufacturer or if inherent in laminated stocks? Both examples are Rugers and I don't know who makes their stocks (probably Boyds?)

[flamingo 7]

I’ve little experience with laminate stocks, but I’m a wood guy. I like the feel of wood (laminate or not) and the look of good wood. I’m a romantic at heart, in 1866 I’d probably still be shooting a flintlock sted of those newfangled lever guns. That said, I realize there is a real place for laminates and synthetic stocks. I’m in the process of working up a mountain gun that will wear a synthetic stock. The only drawback to laminates in my view is their weight. If I were building a varmint gun, where weight wasn’t really an issue, laminates would probably get the nod, stability of glass and the feel of wood. For something carried a lot in places where air is precious, I can’t think of a better choice than Kevlar. However this is a personal view, where heart too often plays a role. I do love the look of the gun that started this thread, and can’t think of a better choice for a mannlicher. The Remington 660’s are a story in themselves. The stock is about the last thing that catches your eye.

[Timberline]

I sorta keep waiting for someone to design and offer a truly advanced, high-tech, highly versatile and easily adjustable hunting-oriented aftermarket rifle stock.

Maybe an aluminum or magnesium metal skeleton core overlaid with exotic wood veneers and offering acceptable means of adjustment for comb height, length of pull, grip diameter, recoil pad choice and even stock weight and balance.

Some things, in particular the notion of individual adjustments and a modular nature, could be borrowed in some fashion from today’s advanced tactical/sniper stocks, although I can’t help but think that it could be done in such a fashion as to mostly preserve the clean and uncluttered look and feel of the American-classic hunting rifle stock ideal.

Right now, we all either go to great lengths to buy rifles that just happen to fit us or we work hard at adapting to the rifles we do buy. It would be so nice to simply be able to precisely owner-adjust a trim, lightweight hunting stock to fit exactly as we want. It would also probably be a whole lot of fun to fiddle and fine tune with those adjustments.

Can you imagine a hunting stock that you could also adjust in weight and balance, maybe with interchangeable weight modules, inserts or panels?

And, of course, you could dress up or dress down the stock with overlays of carbon (lightweight), exotic hardwood (class and beauty) or composite (practicality and durability) to change the rifle’s nature at a whim.

Obviously not everyone would embrace such an advanced hunting stock. I know that because hunters today can’t even agree on current stock materials - solid wood, laminated wood or synthetics. Still, some of us might just love an advanced, classical, adjustable hunting stock if it were done right.

Just thinking out loud...

[Ralph]

Whatever the problem I think it unlikely a problem with the laminating process as such.

Years ago I was a professional woodworker/cabinetmaker. One project needed some wider stock so I glued up 3 pieces of wood using Titebond and hand planing the joint. Nothing exceptional or fancy, just a simple functional joint. After I cut out the piece I was left with two pieces of scrap, sort of hour-glass shaped wih a very thin portion of the glued joint at the narrowest part. I broke the scrap apart before tossing into the firewood bin and noticed that the piece did not break at the narrowest part put actually an inch or so away - in other words, the wood failed before the glue joint did.

Out of curiousity I glued up a couple of boards like this -_- let them cure for a couple of days then went out and broke the piece by swinging at a large rock. I did break the thing up but, once again, it was he solid wood that failed, not the glue joint.

Given the correct materials and preparation I doubt very much that a laminated stock is going to fail at the glue joints.

[41magfan]

That's two split stocks on this modest (participant wise) board itself. I find that as cause for concern. Wonder if this is an issue from a particular manufacturer or if inherent in laminated stocks? Both examples are Rugers and I don't know who makes their stocks (probably Boyds?)

I would like to think these can be attributed to faulty craftsmanship and not endemic of laminated stocks as a whole.

The bonding agent is often times just as critical as the particular "process" of lamination used, but in general terms - the process of lamination tends to be stronger than the base materials used - if done correctly.

[Timberline]

The Remington 600’s are a story in themselves. The stock is about the last thing that catches your eye.

I’m aghast, simply aghast!

Are you saying you don’t secretly pine for a ventilated rib, sharkfin front sight and dogleg bolt handle on your Dakota M76? Where’s you sense of adventure, man? :rolleyes:

[CCH]

Hey, those ventilated ribs were a vital component to dissipating heat from those incredible short mags! ;)

I have an old Gun Digest gunsmithing book in which Tommy L. Bish takes such a Remington, removes the rib and installs a gorgeous, walnut mannlicher style stock. Totally different rifle. I think he might have even removed the dogleg and put on a butterknife (is that the term?) type handle.

[flamingo 7]

I’m aghast, simply aghast!

Are you saying you don’t secretly pine for a ventilated rib, sharkfin front sight and dogleg bolt handle on your Dakota M76? Where’s you sense of adventure, man? :rolleyes:

You’re right! I pulled a couple of Huntsman’s posts on stock painting and have a cans of flat kaki and spider web paint standing by to touch up my Dakota. Might just hollow out the stock al la draganov style as well, maybe lighten it up some. By the way I see that Safari Press is offering the continued story of Heat, Thirst, and Ivory.

[Smokepole]

You’re right! I pulled a couple of Huntsman’s posts on stock painting and have a cans of flat kaki and spider web paint standing by to touch up my Dakota.

I have a dremel you can borrow to do some tasteful hand carvings on it too, I'd highly recommend it.