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View Full Version : Machine gun bag and ammo bearing



tsette
10-28-2003, 06:29 PM
As a PL I always see my boys ruffing and toughin the 240B around and having a hard time with the barrel bag/tripod bag. I think a more lightweight and dependably strong bag is needed to fill the gap. The bag should be able to attach to a ruck or even LBE equipment or and independant backpack. I think the pockets could be seperated for each peice of equipment. The extra barrel would need to be beefed up to take the heat when switching out barrels and moving on the go. What do you guys think?

The ammo bag should be able to carry 300-400 linked 7.62 and should be very quiet when on the move (hence cinch straps), the bag would need a padded carrying strap due to the weight. some pals webbing and maybe a velcro hinge door so ammo would open immediately for gunner.

I know that TAC TAIL makes a bag but it seems to rigid and comfort was not thought about. LBRIDGE only makes feeder tray 100 round starters.

What are people thinking? /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif

tsette
10-29-2003, 08:13 AM
Maybe no one likes machine guns?????

I would hope someone would have some info or suggestions?

PLEASE HELP ME OUT PEOPLE!!!! /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

LT SETTE OUT

tsette
10-29-2003, 08:16 AM
IDEA HIT ME!!!!!!

The bag could hold a standard military ammo can with the linked ammo in it. This would make simple for the boys to carry the ammo already packed in cans but that might be too much weight though....well it sounded good in my head?

/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
lt sette out

Razor
10-29-2003, 12:10 PM
As much as it pains me, if you go to Mike Spark\'s web site (http://www.geocities.com/equipmentshop/mmg.htm) , he has a picture of the new spare barrel bag already in the system, as well as a picture and description of a modified bag based off the design of the old issued rubberized nylon bag.

As for combining the spare barrel bag and a means to carry extra ammo, I'd suggest you keep them separate, as there are occasions you'll only want to have one or the other with you.

tsette
10-29-2003, 05:05 PM
i wouldn't have applied the ammo and tripod togather but as seperate bags that can be used as a team.

I like the website but it still is seemingly using the old bag except for the ranger prototype which looks good but I think Kifaru could make it lighter and more durable.

tsette
10-29-2003, 07:43 PM
ammo bag by tac tail

http://www.tacticaltailor.com/cpics/Ammo_Bag7.62.jpg

it looks good but i think the mods i mentioned above would make it way better.

also LB has the 100 rnd starter under pouches on left hand side of there site.

http://www.lbtcl.com/main.html

the point im trying to make is that anything the army comes up with is usually the lowest bidder and there is considerable improvement available in this area.

murphy is looking at you all

Razor
10-29-2003, 08:09 PM
The Ranger prototype shown on that site is no longer just a prototype; its in the system as general issue. Kifaru does make some great stuff, but the new issue bag is pretty decent. It has a heat resistant liner so you can put a relatively hot barrel into it without burning through the bag, and it has separate pockets for the T&E and misc tools. In the case of a gun bag, you want durable and heat resistant moreso than just lightweight.

I think you do want some rigidity in your ammo bag, so that your belt doesn't get all kinked up during movement. Although the exposed plastic in the TT bag can be a bit noisy, it also provides a very slick surface to prevent rounds and links from snagging and causing a jammed gun. I also think the gunner should have some type of feeder bag to keep his starter belt (100 or so rounds) clean and ready to fire, like you said.

With the wide availability of assault packs today, I think the question of how to lug around a tripod is answered. You can stick the tripod, and even a couple boxes of ammo, into most of your '3-day' sized assault packs, and still have all of it readily available (unless of course you're executing crew displacement drills, in which case the AG just grabs the tripod and runs with it in his hands to the next firing position).

tsette
10-30-2003, 03:58 AM
the noise is of course a prime concern.

I have not seen the barrel bag in any infantry unit here on the west coast, or at benning since this last summer. They still had the old style that craps out on you.

Rangers are Rangers and they get the best like SF. I know the 101 and 82nd probably have it due to rapid fielding projects and so forth, but most units probably don't have this bag.

Even though the material you mention is heavier, the idea Im suggesting is that we make the bag more multifunctional with pals, bandoleer straps, and maybe even have it except some backpack straps as an addition.

Its the little things that get us killed in combat. The website you sent me to pointed out that seconds can mean the difference between failure and success. This bag can be better.

For the ammo bag, I agree throwing some ammo cans in an assault pack would do, but having the bag I mentioned in the first post with a velcro opening and a slit would settle this problem and can be made to be very quiet with MRE main meal boxes. The availability of ammo and setting up in a fast succession is the main concern of mine.

I will try to draw my idea and send it to MEL or Patrick to post if it meets their satisfaction.

RangerReject
11-04-2003, 06:28 PM
The main problem with the new spare barrel bag is its materials. We all love cordura, but when you put a hot barrel on the "heat resistant" layer, it doesn't burn, but the Nylon on the backside does. If you use this bag, it will be destroyed with normal crew drills. FFT.

tsette
11-05-2003, 06:34 AM
The bag would have a hot sleeve made of heat resistant material. I have a buddy that told me of some dupont material that can take quite a load of heat and Im trying to get the specs for it. If that doesn't work then you could always use a smaller area to slide the barrel into when its hot. You would reduce the amount of heat resistant material and still have a lighter bag.

LT OUT

Razor
11-05-2003, 07:35 AM
Maybe this is an instance where newer isn't better. Perhaps a bag made of cotton duck, lined with a heat-resistant material, would be the better (and cheaper) solution.

rickdog
11-26-2003, 02:50 PM
The Marines have a barrel bag, but do you really want one guy stuck with the barrel AND the tripod and ammo cans?

That thing is always getting burned by barrels too.

red devil
02-12-2004, 08:22 AM
It's been my experience that the tripod should stay in the ag's hands or on the ruck. I think putting it in a bag would make it too inaccessible. I've had alright luck with the blackhawk ammo bag. You might want to see what those look like.

DiabloDawg
02-12-2004, 08:59 AM
Anybody know if LBT's 100-round feed bag will fit the 240G (or 240B?) It says it is for an M60, but can it work for the new pig? I know someone makes one for the 240; but I have never seen who it is or what-not.

Ralph
02-12-2004, 11:32 AM
Been a while since I last had anything to do the MGs, but how about making the whole bag from heat resistant Kevlar? I've not seen the Kifaru stovepipe holes but the stuff on my GP-light hex tent looks like OD rubberized fabric but resists a very hot stovepipe with no problem. Material is probably pretty expensive, but so is melting down cheaper bags. On most of my re-designed gear I have been using Ensolite foam for both padding and stiffening. The foam is encased in two layers of fabric and is surprising stiff, holding a fair amount of weight. I'm thinking of the type of foam used inside car engine compartments, seems to be pretty heat resistant.

For the ammo, a foam stiffened bag lined with one of the slippery versions of cordura/kevlar/whatever would address the noise/weight issue, and would be flexible enough to tighten around the ammo belt to keep the thing from rattling, while stiff enough to keep from fouling the belt is use. Just a thought.

Rangergear
02-12-2004, 04:46 PM
To: tsette
I was a gun team leader for a year in 2nd batt and in my experience Iíve learned that Only Sergeant majors and Officers believe that the 240 needs a tripod. If you look at the mechanical improvements of the 240 youíll see that the cone buffer system has been replaced with a hydraulic buffer. That along with the 145 optic has made the tripod obsolete. When I asked My SGM why we had to carry around the tripod he said because of patrol bases, and itís more accurate. So that day out at FT. Knox while at a range we tested on bipod and on tripod. The results out to 900 meters were exactly the same. Then we locked the T&E and pushed the butt stock to the right and fired a burst. The rounds went out of the range limits. Then to the left and fired, the rounds landed just inside the range limits. After that test we put up one lane of targets and two teams engaged one on tripod and the other on bipod. The gun that was on bipod was able to engage the targets almost two times as fast. Plus thereís the weight savings if you leave the tripod behind you could carry extra ammo and the effective range of 7.62 is a lot greater than a tripod. As for patrol bases when was the last time in history that a unit was blown out of a patrol base in combat. Times change and so should our tactics. My advise to you is next time your guns are out at a range go out there and absorb all the information you can from the gun teams and then try and use it to make them more effective.

red devil
02-12-2004, 05:02 PM
Good points! Also, how much weight should one gun team member carry? Linked 7.62 weighs around 8 pounds per 100 rounds. I think having more than 200 rounds in a bag is going to blow out the ab's neck.

tsette
02-12-2004, 08:54 PM
You do have some good points but you need to remember that the tripod and t&e are for more defensive purposes then in offensive ops. The problem I only see with your remarks is if you remember why the t and e are there in the first place. In defensive position with your range card you can accurately engage targets via setting put in to the t&e in the defense. But since we never know where we are going to stay some times we need to hump that dumb thing with us. Murphys law can come and haunt you with getting rid of equipment that has use. Just think about what Im saying. Im not saying your wrong and I see your points clearly but carrying that stuff does come in handy especially when murphy comes callin and you didnt bring it with you. I know that is doctrine talking but doctrine is put into to place so we have a base for combat and you obviosly know it. I know your experience has been long and hard but history has been a factor in the reason that this stuff sticks around.

red devil
02-13-2004, 01:26 PM
Doctrine is another word for habit. The Army will never grow and improve if we maintain our thinking based off of WW 2 equipment and tactics. I've never done anything with the tripod I could not do off of bipod. The defensive role of the t&e would have more merit if they were not so inheriently inaccurate. There is too much flex and play in the system to be able to deliver the kind of precision you are looking for. Plus, modern night optics render the need for prededermined fires obsolete.

murphquake
02-14-2004, 02:29 AM
all,
check the latest m60 owners guide installment in SAR for a pic of a few pig ammo bags, including one from eagle... sds also does a bag in desert and woodyflage that's on their new site, check for emmado22 on ebay for better pix... looks promising. HTH
-bill