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disillusionedpatriot
08-27-2009, 09:19 AM
In many of the drive-in public lands hunting areas in WA you will find outhouses of various quality of construction left from year-to-year at campsites used by hunters who return to the same site annually. Are these outhouses to be considered:

A. Illegal caches.

B. Illegal structures.

C. Public services.

D. Other.

I consider them to be C. Public services. I enjoy looking at the old meat-hanging poles, the nails and wires left in the trees from old ones, old railings for makeshift tables or storage, old pole structures, abandoned fire rings, the occasional bit of mystery hardware, even nails with flaps of plastic sheeting still attached. I consider these things to be part of the character of public hunting areas, a form of recent history.

Which parties returned to these sites for how many years? Why did they stop coming?

Last year out elk hunting miles from the trailhead and way off-trail, I sat down to take a break. I looked down and found a small cast toy railway car embedded in the dried moss on a rock. I like finding old beer and pop cans in the woods. Sure, I don't wish there to be hundreds of them, but I like seeing what type of top, which style of self-opening, or going back to the puncture-open type. To see if the brand can still be made out, whether it's a brand still made.

I left this over a decade ago on some public land:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/633/drycamp2005n1.jpg (http://img254.imageshack.us/i/drycamp2005n1.jpg/)


I feel precisely zero remorse, shame, or guilt.

Sawtooth
08-27-2009, 09:31 AM
CCH,

If you ever find my Snowpeak ti spork at my bench camp, I'd appreciate it if you'd give it back to me. I lost it on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 at approximately 10:00 AM. I haven't slept a wink since then. I hate leaving stuff behind.

evanhill
08-27-2009, 09:31 AM
What about this one?

http://www.evanhill.org/images/nwwr08/042.jpg

CCH
08-27-2009, 10:06 AM
CCH,

If you ever find my Snowpeak ti spork at my bench camp, I'd appreciate it if you'd give it back to me. I lost it on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 at approximately 10:00 AM. I haven't slept a wink since then. I hate leaving stuff behind.

Perhaps you dropped it in your privy? If so, don't plan on me looking for it. DP can enjoy its historical wonder at some point. ;)

I'm telling you, if it was blue lexan you would have found it and if somehow you hadn't, you'd be able to sleep.

David in OR
08-27-2009, 10:17 AM
There's a pit toilet on public land where some friends and I camp and rock climb in the Blue Mountains every year. We help maintain it, and we're glad it's there.

Like Evan said, it's about using discretion.

Buck W
08-27-2009, 10:30 AM
Evan, that's not a "structure". That sculpture is functional, biodegradable ART. Reminds me of a showing by a rising young artist a year and a half ago near Mt Adams ;) I think I've seen his work more recently at an Oregon gallery IIRC.

singleshot
08-27-2009, 10:41 AM
Sawtooth did leave his icebox at the Colorado Winter Rondy.
He drank all of the beer and the icebox went away in the spring.

Sawtooth
08-27-2009, 10:48 AM
I packed out my cans too. ;)

scothill
08-27-2009, 11:33 AM
You know DP, I can't decide if you are just messing with everyone or if you really advocate what I see as lazy slob behavior. So I will keep it short and sweet then bow out of this discussion. If a whole host of ifs are met then an outhouse on public land can be a good thing. If they are not then it is just another smelly eyesore.

disillusionedpatriot
08-27-2009, 11:37 AM
You know DP, I can't decide if you are just messing with everyone or if you really advocate what I see as lazy slob behavior.

Not sure what you're referring to. Outhouses? The stick frame? Something else?

scothill
08-27-2009, 12:12 PM
outhouses of various quality of construction left from year-to-year

the nails and wires left in the trees from old ones, old railings for makeshift tables or storage, old pole structures, the occasional bit of mystery hardware, even nails with flaps of plastic sheeting still attached.

old beer and pop cans in the woods.

all of this stuff

disillusionedpatriot
08-27-2009, 12:33 PM
all of this stuff

I said it doesn't bother me to see some of this.

You aren't bothered by meat poles left at camps are you?

When I come across the odd stray can, or place where some tarp was nailed to a tree, it's usually such a rare and minor thing I consider it an artifact, not an eyesore.

Jason
08-27-2009, 01:12 PM
I'm coming to the conversation late, but;

A Hill Brothers winter toilet IS a public service, and a work of art.

I enjoy seeing a very, very thin smattering of antiques in the woods. I realize it's just crap from a previous generation, but for some reason a faded pull-tab beer can doesn't tick me off like a new can would. It tells a story to me, and seems almost romantic, rather than repulsive, even thought they are the same slobs from different generations. If I'm finding things every trip, it's much too thick. Trouble is, I usually find more new trash than old. I pick it up so the next guy doesn't have to look at it.

Since we're on the subject, I'll share something I learned a couple months ago from a co-worker who partners with the USFS on some activities. I wasn't aware of this, but the Feds have a law(s) that anything over 25yrs old is considered a relic, and cannot be removed from federal land. So those treasures we find on hikes are supposed to be left as "social resources" or something. I can understand not looting a ghost town or Indian burial site, but I really am amazed that the USFS wants to keep the litter level at status quo as long as it's older than 1974. I haven't had a chance to talk with the local FS LEOs yet, but this issue will be one of the topics of conversation. So with the Forest Pass.

scothill
08-27-2009, 01:24 PM
You aren't bothered by meat poles left at camps are you?



Yes they do especially if they are wired to the tree or attached in such a manner that the tree will die especially if there are several in a single camp. I have taken out plenty in the Wilderness, but left them alone in other areas of NF as they are allowed there due to different use requirements and regulations and my understanding of the need for those differences. I have found where people left their wall tent frames stashed in lengths behind logs and such I can't say as that really bothers me. I personally think the matchbox train or whatever it was was a cool find, but to me trash is trash when it comes to old cans and bottles and such. Then again I was a cultural anthropologist by training not an archaeologist. ;)

Jason, I don't rememeber the age, but that seems about right. Sometime I will tell you about the time, I was part of a crew that caught an old cabin (well part of three walls of what was once a cabin) on fire and the onsite archeologists response to it. :)

disillusionedpatriot
08-27-2009, 01:29 PM
I enjoy seeing a very, very thin smattering of antiques in the woods. I realize it's just crap from a previous generation, but for some reason a faded pull-tab beer can doesn't tick me off like a new can would. It tells a story to me, and seems almost romantic, rather than repulsive, even thought they are the same slobs from different generations. If I'm finding things every trip, it's much too thick.

This is where I'm at.

disillusionedpatriot
08-27-2009, 01:47 PM
Yes they do especially if they are wired to the tree or attached in such a manner that the tree will die especially if there are several in a single camp.

I suppose there's too much of anything. I can't say as I've ever seen one where the tree would die or had died from such wire. I think they're interesting, however constructed.

As another example, if someone took the nails from my trees out in the wilderness, I'd be pissed. A nail is a valuable commodity. I see no harm in a few nails in a remote, seldom-used campsite.

Timberline
08-27-2009, 07:07 PM
What a lovely spot for a wall tent and a rustic hunting camp.

I mostly like wilderness when I can use it. Gentle will be the use, with mostly natural materials and care. But overly zealous rules and regulations designed to simply keep me out are, IMHO, unwarranted in many areas. Some heavy-use areas, I suppose, need it. But many others do not.

I would have no problem with DPís simple, natural tent frame. To me it says serious hunters have been here, and that intrigues me. I do, on the other hand, have a problem with careless litter, plastic and plywood though. But I see none of that here.

Use the wilderness gently and naturally, but use it.

AbnMedOps
08-27-2009, 09:13 PM
I know a neat spot in Montana that decades ago was a seasonal sheepherder's camp. Standing there, you can see where a wall tent once was pitched, probably same spot for years. A crib-bed of poles, with once-springy green boughs for a mattress. Little conveniences, like a stump table and shelves. "Outside", pole fencing for horses, and an area for doctoring stock. Kinda neat to wander through, and seems entirely fitting to the area.

And old mining sites are neat, sometimes with fascinating old hardware about. I reminder of when when men where men and there was a West to be won!

I also love spots like Oregon Trail wagon ruts. There is nothing like standing EXACTLY there, and feeling the time in the wind and those people so very close and so very distant.

But I sure do hate modern plastic-crap garbage laying about anywhere!

Smokepole
08-27-2009, 09:41 PM
Personally, I'd be honored if DP would come out to Colorado and build an outhouse in my favorite camping spot. But only if he keeps it stocked with TP. If not then it just ain't worth a ****.

For the record, I'd like the door to have a stained glass window and face east so I can see the sunrise during the morning constitutional. A subscription to the Denver Post, at least the sports page, would be appreciated. And DP, if you can't keep it stocked with TP, go ahead and leave the op/ed page, at least it'll be good for something.

CCH
08-28-2009, 07:41 AM
At what point does garbage acquire the splendid patina of history and wonder? I would assume that regardless of the minimum age, we need to preserve more modern trash such as plastic bottles and Skoal cans so that future generations can some day enjoy them and wonder about those that came before them and threw them on the ground. If I can find some he'll part with, I'll have my youngest son leave behind a Matchbox car or better yet a nigh indestructible action figure to brighten someone's day down the road.

Smoke, although I like the stained glass concept, so many of our potential constitutional type views are so enjoyable in their own right that I'm surprised you'd want them closed off and you distracted by a newspaper. However in truly cold conditions and if heated -- not sure I'd leave the Kifaru stove there but it could be worth packing one in -- that could be sort of nice. Personally I'd add an attendant as after a few days in the woods some cologne would be nice on the way out as well as someone to hand you a towel.

I think Backpacker magazine featured the world's best privys or at least one that I remember some time ago. This one had walls about waist high and a simply gorgeous view that would truly inspire one to "take a load off" and enjoy your surroundings. As I recall it was in New Hampshire in the White Mountains but I could be wrong. It was at the top of some heavily traveled trail. I suspect you had to supply your own toilet paper but I remember looking at it and thinking I'd hike up there just to sit on that toilet.

elmbow
08-28-2009, 08:09 AM
I'm coming to the conversation late, but;

A Hill Brothers winter toilet IS a public service, and a work of art.

I enjoy seeing a very, very thin smattering of antiques in the woods. I realize it's just crap from a previous generation, but for some reason a faded pull-tab beer can doesn't tick me off like a new can would. It tells a story to me, and seems almost romantic, rather than repulsive, even thought they are the same slobs from different generations. If I'm finding things every trip, it's much too thick. Trouble is, I usually find more new trash than old. I pick it up so the next guy doesn't have to look at it.

Since we're on the subject, I'll share something I learned a couple months ago from a co-worker who partners with the USFS on some activities. I wasn't aware of this, but the Feds have a law(s) that anything over 25yrs old is considered a relic, and cannot be removed from federal land. So those treasures we find on hikes are supposed to be left as "social resources" or something. I can understand not looting a ghost town or Indian burial site, but I really am amazed that the USFS wants to keep the litter level at status quo as long as it's older than 1974. I haven't had a chance to talk with the local FS LEOs yet, but this issue will be one of the topics of conversation. So with the Forest Pass.

One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

snakey2
08-28-2009, 09:36 AM
I don't know about the rest of you but the hunting camp I grew up in had an outhouse with 2 holes, NO WAITING! Many a hunt was planned while "multitasking".

Pointshoot
08-31-2009, 08:10 PM
Who uses outhouses ? Go back deep in the woods, dig a hole, and lean back from an appropriate tree !

Jefferson Herb
09-04-2009, 02:25 AM
I guess I've become lazy,I at least look for a windfall or something to sit on. It's nice to req some creature comforts. What bothers me is when i start counting the holes thru the sides.

4orrwantmore
09-14-2009, 02:14 PM
Just got back from my first elk hunt in Idaho. Incredible scenery and a good hunt, but the amount of trash, and trash miles from a trail was digusting. At some old camp sites the amount of broken glass was mind boggling. We filled three large garbage bags with others left behind crap at our basecamp and if we were willing to give up more hunting time we could have easily tripled that. I guess I am naieve(sp) but how in the hell can people that go to all the trouble to get to such places suddenly loose their minds once there? I am talking straight up garbage, not structures mind you. The tent frame just reinforces that the area was/is hunted by people who know how to make camp.