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evanhill
08-17-2009, 10:32 AM
This is too important to wait for the next Rondy! :)

Let's gather some data on just how quickly and accurately various platforms are capable of being shot by a variety of people. We'll also be gathering data on various carry methods as well. Interested in pistol and rifle data. So, here's the challenge:


10 yards
3 shots
Standard 25 yard pistol target (although this doesn't matter so much)
From your chosen carry method, draw and fire three shots as quickly and accurately as you can.
Post the following information

Platform (pistol or rifle type)
Exact cartridge
Carry method (bonus goes to real world carry methods)
Center to center group size
Timer method (shot timer or stopwatch)
Time to first shot (this shows how good or bad the carry method is)
Splits (average time between shots once underway)
Total elapsed time

If you have a shot timer, all of the above data is easy. If you don't, you'll probably only be able to get elapsed time. Either way, post your timer method.

This should give us some really good data on carry methods and shootability of various platforms -- both how well they can be shot on average and how well a person can train to shoot them.

Nothing like a good dataset to help come to grips with a problem. I'm very interested to see how this comes out!

evanhill
08-17-2009, 11:04 AM
Just to get the ball rolling with some data I've already got that's pretty close to the parameters. None of them are truly bear loads, although not horrible. This is averaged across two shooters and three runs apiece at 15 yards instead of 10. The variance between shooters wasn't significant:


16" Marlin 45/70 with Leupold Scout scope:

405 grain 1100 fps cowboy load
low ready, condition one, hammer at half cock
group size not collected, < 6"
shot timer
time to first shot - not collected
splits: 1.52s
elapsed: 4.81s
16" Marlin .44 with burris fastfire red dot:

ammo unknown, but more recoil than 45/70 cowboy ammo
low ready, condition 1, hammer at half cock
not collected, <3"
shot timer
time to first shot not collected
splits: 1.48s
elapsed: 5.16s
16" Marlin 45/70 with XS ghost ring:

405 grain 1100 fps cowboy ammo
low ready, condition 1, hammer at half cock
not collected, <6"
shot timer
time to first shot not collected
splits: 2.06s
elapsed: 6.74s
Remington bolt gun with LER scope:

.308 155 grain
low ready, condition 1, safety on
not collected, <6"
shot timer
time to first shot not collected
splits: 2.3s
elapsed: 6.82s
16" FAL with leupold circle dot reticle:

milsurp 7.62x51
low ready, condition 1, safety on
not collected, <3"
shot timer
time to first shot not collected
splits: .91s
elapsed: 4.06s

CCH
08-17-2009, 12:08 PM
Would you mind getting a time on them with no round in the chamber? I'm curious since that is a popular way to carry for a lot of folks per some of these threads -- I'm a condition one kind of guy myself. I've no timer and don't shoot enough to be anywhere near fast so I'm curious.

Usain Bolt just went 100 meters in 9.58 seconds. I'll bet the math on a bear works out even more in their favor against multiple shots or even a single shot in a lot of cases.

evanhill
08-17-2009, 03:35 PM
CCH - bear in mind that the split time represents the time to work the action and fire another shot. that gives you some idea.

However, you've given me an idea. Anything you want tested, send me ammunition and the requisite firearm to do it with, and I'll do EXTENSIVE testing. Shooting times are guaranteed to be representative of a bottom quartile skill level shooter ;)

Jesse Jaymes
08-18-2009, 12:47 PM
I thought I was gonna take this test and weigh in with a pretty decisive showing with a secret weapon.....M1A Springfield SOCOM.


Looks like someone beat me to it with the FN. Think it would be tough to beat an autoloading, compact rifle, and have a .30 caliber TSX, Partition, or whatever to boot.

Think Phil Shoemaker is occassionally toting a .458 SOCOM on an AR platform.

Sure, reliability may be an issue, but I think the rate of fire, accuracy, and firepower would far outweigh the negatives compared to the next closest competitor.

ryanusmc
08-18-2009, 05:51 PM
These are my results from today. I don't have a shot timer or real stopwatch. I used the stopwatch on my phone and set it on a table on my right side. I would press the start button, draw my pistol or raise my rifle, shoot, then press the stop button. Not the best set up but it's the only way I could time myself.

All rifle times are with my left hand around the reciever at my left side. 4" redhawk was drawn from a kramer horsehide scabbard, my sig 226 was drawn from a blackhawk serpa.

3 shots at 10 yards

Sig p226 9mm shooting 115 fmj.
3.52 sec- 3 1/4"
3.31 - 3 1/2"
3.43 - 2 1/4"
3.14 - 2 1/2"
3.59 - 4 1/2" (one handed)

Ruger Redhawk 4" 45 colt. 270swc at 1000fps
4.36 sec - 5"
4.29 - 5 3/4"

Ruger mini 14 in Tapco pistol grip stock, peep sights. M193 ammo
2.51 sec - 1 3/8"

Ruger m77mk2, peep sight, straightgrip stock. 175 rn at 2400fps
5.4 sec - 2 1/2"

Puma 92' 16" carbine 45 colt. 270sc 1400fps open sights
3.61 sec - 3"

I think I could knock off a second from my times if I had a better way to record my times.

How did I do? Did I survive the attack?

ozarkrambler
08-22-2009, 11:46 AM
Here is my contribution to the fun. The boys had a hoot cheering me on and yelling bear!

Timing method was with 2 stop watches. Time started when bear was yelled, first watch off at first shot, second watch off at 3rd shot.

First up, my Dave Clements slicked up 45 colt Ruger. I had quite a bit of work done on this revolver and it is a dream to shoot. I was shooting from a Mernickle holster/belt setup, did not have the thong on the hammer. I shoot this gun a lot. Load was 255gr Keith at 1000fps.
All 3 shots landed in the 10 ring of a 50yd pistol target, I shot 3 runs of 3.

2.8 and 7
3.6 and 4.8, I was really slicking the hammer back on this group
2.4 and 7

#2
SW mod 329 pd, carry on strong side thumb retainer snapped 2 runs of 3

2.4 and 4.1
2.4 and 4

Groups were about 6" I hate the big red dot and express v setup. If I were to carry this it would definitely get a sight and action job.

Load screaming hot 240gr jacketed. Very unpleasant load in this pistol.

#3
Springfield xd 45acp Service mod. Strong side carry, in the supplied holster.

230gr ball was all I had.
Group size around 5 inches

2.3 and 5
1.8 and 3.9


#4
SW Highway patrolman 357mag 6"bbl
Load 180gr Hardcast. Strong side carry, thumb retainer snapped.
I shoot the crap out of this gun, rounds fired through this gun approaching 30-40 thousand. This was the gun I used for the center fire matches, when shooting conventional pistol matches. It has the best double action trigger pull of any revolver I ever shot. Group size was around 2.5 -3 inches.

1.5 and 3.5
1.8 and 3

#5
Marlin 30-30 carbine worked over by Dave Clay in Texas. It is a pretty slick rig... at least I think it is.
Load 170gr fp
Carry in Kifaru gunbearer
Group size 2.0

2.0 and 5.6
2.0 and 5.1

#6
Win. MOd 70 308 Scout setup
Load 220gr Nosler partition
Carry in Kifaru Gunbearer
Group size, 2 touching and 1- 2" higher second group- nice cluster of 3 about 3.5 inches overall.

2.1 and 5.6
1.8 and 4

Anyway, don't know what to make of the numbers, they might be fast or they might be about avg. I don't know yet. I can definitely tell a difference in the weapons I shoot and carry frequently. I think next time I need to shoot the Single action with one hand and see what that does to my times.

I'd like to shoot a big bore bolt gun and see how much that slows me down. Something in the 375 range. That would be a good stopper.... I think.

Ozark

scothill
08-22-2009, 12:31 PM
CCH I have the numbers for both the .44m lever gun and the bolt gun from empty chamber

.44m is actually faster at 4.87 total and 1.35 for splits.
My notes indicate that Evan had a poor run the first and only time he shot the chambered drill based on his second run on the unchambered drill which skewed the number for chambered drill upwards. Basically he wasn't holding the rifle aggessively. I have found that if I put my hand out at the end of the foregrip and use it to pull down and in that I handle recoil better. This is in front of the natural balance point where Evan was holding for his only chambered run. Evan tried the different hold after his chambered and unchambered runs and it improved his times (from 6.83 overall to 4.98 and 1.86 splits to 1.47 splits unchambered), but we didn't rerun the chambered one like we should have. So basically, I would say that the holding of the gun is more significant then chambered and unchambered with a lever gun.

With the bolt gun it is 8.385 with 2.57 splits. So the splits where a bit slower and the overall time is about what you would expect adding another split in.


Also I will say that Evan doubled and trippled what we actually remember the group sizes to be just to be safe and fair as we didn't record them. For instance with the .44m he says that groups where <3. In my case I put them under an inch with two of the shots overlapping. I am anxious to get back out and do these "Bear drills" at the closer range and see how we fair.

evanhill
08-22-2009, 12:34 PM
Ozark, I'm digging that 2 second presentation from the Kifaru gunbearer. Good stuff.

I don't know about fast or average either, but it is much closer to real world than mere speculation. It also should be sobering to most to see how much you've shot to get to your level of proficiency. I know Ryan shoots quite a bit as well.

I'm particularly interested in the big bore revolver data. Both you and Ryan shoot those big Rugers pretty doggone well it seems like to me. On the other hand, neither of the loads are what a lot of pundits would consider adequate. Your performance with the 329pd also seems good to me.

The next obvious question for all of us is where on that curve of speed / accuracy / power / carry weight we want to make our bet based on our own skills. If I were you, I think I'd be most comfortable with the highway patrolman.

I've still got to collect some pistol data myself, and maybe re-run a rifle or two at 10 yards instead of 15.

On a side note, anybody know of a good commercially loaded 220 grain 308 load?

LT Brown
08-22-2009, 01:08 PM
Are looking for any 45 auto load shooting data?

scothill
08-22-2009, 01:20 PM
If that is your bear gun yes.

LT Brown
08-22-2009, 01:28 PM
Only 2 legged Bears in Kansas does that count?

evanhill
08-22-2009, 03:04 PM
Only 2 legged Bears in Kansas does that count?

Let's see it! The whole point of this is to get some actual numbers so that we can get a handle on what "fast accurate shooting" really might mean for the average joe in a variety of different calibers, platforms, and carry systems.

Yes, static range at a bullseye isn't the same as dynamic situation with a charging bear, but it is better than no baseline at all. I can guarantee that your shooting isn't going to get *better* in an emergency situation.

ozarkrambler
08-22-2009, 04:07 PM
I'm trying to devise a moving bear target out of a skateboard, and a box. Anybody have any idea how far away I should start it? I'm thinking 30yds, if I see a bear closer than 30 yds and moving towards me, I'm thinking I should have already been shooting! I think I'll tie a rope on it, have the kids stand behind me with the rope and when one yells bear have him take off as fast as he can pulling it towards me, the other two can time me. It might prove to be very entertaining, and I can see a lot of misses with this.

Any thoughts?

Evan, I don't think I have ever seen a factory loaded 220gr 308. You might have to load your own. I really like the 220. I shoot it in my iron sighted bolt guns. It is plenty good for the ranges I can shoot with irons. From what I can tell it hits pretty hard. I also like the scout setup for this little experiment. Very fast target acquisition. and nothing to interfere with bolt manipulation.

Ken
08-22-2009, 04:24 PM
Ozark...Can I come over for a sleepover sometime? You fellers seem like your having ALOT of fun with this challange and I'd like to partake....??....ppphhhuuuullleeeaaasseee???

:D

scothill
08-22-2009, 04:29 PM
One moving target method I heard of was to take a grape fruit or something similar sized and toss it up a hill as far away as you can and then hit it as it rolls back down to you. I am not sure how accurate this is as I am thinking the movement might be more erractic then a bear head due to a greater range of motion available because of no limitations by a neck and body attached. I have been wondering about a helium balloon on a short string to somewhat restrict movement to a more managable level or even a suspended waterballoon to give it more weight and a more natural movement. As to a frame I was thinking about something made out of PVC pipe with larger wheels to account for less than smooth terrain. I am not sure how a skateboard would roll on gravel and or sand which is what we have around here.

evanhill
08-22-2009, 06:29 PM
I also like the scout setup for this little experiment. Very fast target acquisition. and nothing to interfere with bolt manipulation.

I have a 2-7 scout mounted pistol scope on the remington in my test as well. I don't think it truly offers faster target acquisition than a conventionally mounted low power variable (the key is low power). I do think it is a big advantage in working the bolt quickly. I also like what it does for the balance and carryability of the rifle.

ryanusmc
08-23-2009, 05:26 AM
Evan, any increase of speed and follow up shots suffer quite a bit for ME. I can still shoot nice groups though, just slower. I figured 1000fps is a nice ballence of speed and power.

LT Brown
08-23-2009, 06:40 AM
One really good method to bring some motion realism to your shooting, and we have done this is by using a remote control stadium type truck. Use a very light weight very small diameter pvc and a balloon attach it to the truck at what ever height and have fun.

Another simulation that helps bring some realism is to run for 1 min pretty hard to bring your heart rate up and respiration and then go through your shooting drills.

I will agree shooting at targets is never going to fully prepare you for the life and death situation but it is a starting point. I hope I am not intruding into your posts just trying to be friendly and add some helpful hints along the way.

ozarkrambler
08-23-2009, 07:18 AM
Anytime Ken.

Lt. Brown, intrude away! The only thing I can see wrong with all the balloon ideas is that after you hit it, you are done. I'm looking to be able to fire as many shots as possible at the target before it hits me.

Ryan, agreed on the power level. Any faster in the single actions and one handed follow up shots become very slow. Probably 1/2-3/4 slower for me, and the two handed shots suffer as well.

LT Brown
08-23-2009, 07:55 AM
I am no expert and for sure the bear thing is way out of my league and I am open to be corrected. I think I read that smaller caliber firearms would and could drop the bear if placed properly. I even think I saw the bear skulls and how to pull it off if one was fortunate enough to have the skill sets to place the rounds in the right spot and luck to do that. Again I am no expert even at what I do I am a skilled participate and patriot that is all. My thoughts are that if what I read is true a smaller caliber auto loader side arm that would hold 12 rounds with hard ball ammo could be, according to some, a way to go I donít know.

I know for a fact with a 45 auto loader and some practice you can draw very fast, shot very fast and accurately on target. Now whether or not that caliber will do what you are wanting it to do I donít know.

I will post what I have done and if it helps great if not no harm done.

10/12/2008
Cancel Carry Draw and Fire Times


Three rounds 10 Yards cancel carry position with a jacket on with holstered firearm at the ready position:

Timed by Trey Small NRA instructor and Small Arms Instructor for Vector Tactical using a Pact timer

Using a Glock 30 45 cal firearm

Using a Blade Tech paddle holster on my right side

230 grain hard ball Remington ammunition

Firing begins at the buzzer un-commanded

Draw Time: 1:45 sec

1st shot .18 sec

2nd shot .15 sec

3rd shot .16 sec

Combat accuracy on paper with groups of 4Ē or less middle center mass

evanhill
08-28-2009, 11:21 AM
More data, all at 10 yards:

Taurus Titanium .41 magnum cheap 210 grain "shooting stuff"
double action, averaged across two shooters, gun held down at side


total elapsed: 3.99s
split times between shots: 1.1s
group size: 5.75"
Taurus Titanium .41 magnum cheap 210 grain "shooting stuff"
single action, averaged across two shooters, gun held down at side


total elapsed: 5.01s
split times between shots: 1.43s
group size: 4.25"
Taurus Titanium .41 magnum Hornady 250 GR. HC 1325 fps
single action, averaged across two shooters, gun held down at side


total elapsed: 6.16s
split times between shots: 2.06s
group size: 2.25"
S&W full length lightweight 1911 230grn ball

the draw method was from my concealed carry chest rig, which of course slowed the first round down from the hand down at side method of the .41. Averaged across two shooters and three runs:

total elapsed: 5.25s
presentation time to first shot out of chest rig: 4.07
split times between shots: .86s
group size: 3.1"
Discussion:
The corbons are not fun to shoot out of the 24 ounce tracker, but they are accurate -- best accuracy in fact. Split times are over twice as slow as the autoloader. I think this shows that it is too easy to just bang away with the autoloader without concentrating on sight picture. But then again, the 3.1" autoloader group isn't horrible either. Clearly, the .41 magnum 210 grain "shooting stuff" is very inaccurate. Should probably just throw those results out entirely. I can see that that ammo colored some of my earlier thinking about my accuracy with a revolver.

I'm now interested in what kind of speed and accuracy I'd get out of high quality 210 grain .41 magnum ammo. Also, given the high accuracy that single action revolver fire yielded, I'm now curious what could be done with double action, again with higher quality ammo. DA might hit a nice sweet spot of sub 4" groups but split times closer to 1s. Should have done a DA run with the corbon stomper ammo, but frankly didn't want to shoot any more of it during this session.

So, interesting food for thought. At 23ounces for the revolver versus 29ounces for the autoloader, and plenty of accuracy out of the revolver, the revolver is going to accompany me on my next backcountry trip. Luckily, Scot's chest rig is enough bigger than mine that I'll be able to carry the revolver in it. No chest rig would have been a non-starter!

edit: btw, LT Brown shows us just how fast a really practiced shooter can shoot an autoloader with his .16s splits compared to our relatively slow times of .86s.

scothill
08-28-2009, 12:07 PM
The 210 gr stuff out of the mountain gun I used to own was just fine accuracy wise good even. At least much better then out of the taurus. In fact more accurate then the Buffalo Bore ammo I used out of it. I didn't shoot a bunch of it out of the 329 so I can't really comment on that.

Another note my social finder knuckle is still sore from three shots with the taurus and the heavier loads. Also my best group with the .41 and heavy loads was about 4 inches left so would have missed the head. My group with the .45 was right on, and my splits where .77 vs 2.27. More food for though.

I think that before we discount the 210 entirely, even though it is cheap practice ammo some more shooting should be done with it to see how it really stackes up accuracy wise, because based on the MG groups I got I am not prepared to just say it is not accurate enough.

evanhill
08-28-2009, 12:36 PM
Also my best group with the .41 and heavy loads was about 4 inches left so would have missed the head.

I just figured if it was your pistol, you'd adjust the sights since the grouping was good. My group was perfectly centered, so the sights work for me (I did adjust them somewhat last time I shot). In other words, I wouldn't count your left of center group against the platform.

bobmn
08-28-2009, 12:48 PM
Scothill: If your knuckle is being hit by the trigger guard, try a pair of Hogue grips for the Tracker. Make sure you get the grips that enclose the backstrap as opposed to the ones that don't have any cushioning between your hand and the backstrap. The Taurus factory "ribber" grips did the same to me because there is not enough filler behind the trigger guard.

scothill
08-28-2009, 12:58 PM
Scothill: If your knuckle is being hit by the trigger guard, try a pair of Hogue grips for the Tracker. Make sure you get the grips that enclose the backstrap as opposed to the ones that don't have any cushioning between your hand and the backstrap. The Taurus factory "ribber" grips did the same to me because there is not enough filler behind the trigger guard.

Actually the tracker is Evan's, I am not sure if he had the same issue or not. I have a bit bigger hands then he does by a glove size. I currently don't own a bear gun pistol as I don't really go to the bear country that often, and when I do I have a couple of different levergun choices as primary, so they where sold to finance other things.

evanhill
08-28-2009, 01:01 PM
Bob, thanks for the heads up on the Hogue grips -- but the tracker is mine, not Scot's and I *really* like those ribber grips. My hand size/shape must be enough different not to get bitten.

BTW, I'm still really interested in seeing comparison data from heavier calibers.

ozarkrambler
08-29-2009, 08:48 PM
Did a little more playing around with moving targets, and a lot more thinking this past week. Here are some of the conclusions I came to for myself.

If the target is moving at me at a high rate of speed, I am only going to get 1-2 shots off, depending on the distance. I came to that conclusion when I had my oldest boy charge me as fast as he could go (somewhere around 1.25 sec. every 10 yds) as I attempted to draw and fire at him.

Obviously no live rounds were used in this demonstration, and I used a non firing replica S&W this fit in my holster and feels almost the same as my highway patrolman.

I'm sure a pissed off bear can move at least this fast, and I am sure that I was quite a bit more calm and relaxed with him charging me that I would be if a huge irate carnivore was coming at me hell bent on destroying everything in his path. I'm thinking that I had better have whatever weapon I am using for self defense out and in the firing position if any bear that is aware of me is within 50-60 yds. With the weapon in the firing position, ie. rifle at the shoulder, safety off, or sidearm drawn, cocked, and aimed, I feel like I have a fair chance of getting 3 maybe 4 well placed shots off while it covers that 50 yds. This was also proven when my crappy moving target was pulled at me by said boy as I did draw and fire. Results were not near as good as the stationary targets.

So with this new found info. I'm leaning more and more towards big bore pistols with heavy bullets as it appears I am only going to get a couple of chances to connect. I would rather do that connecting with a big bullet than a little one, or a rifle bullet vs. any hand gun bullet. At this point I don't know if I consider a 180gr HC 357 mag as big and heavy enough. If by chance I happen to get 3 shots off, and am able to out maneuver a bear at arms length, I'll still have 3 more shots at him. I'm guessing after 6 shots if the excitement hasn't died down.... literally, then I'm willing to bet I won't get the chance to fire another handful of shots.

I also haven't decided if I like the lightweight 44 mag or not. It has horrible recoil and blast. I'm starting to lean towards the idea of the old S&W mountain guns. They are a bit heavier, which makes them quite a bit more shoot able. I think I'd go with the 45 colt instead of the 44. It doesn't seem to hurt my ears as much, and I shoot my carry guns a lot. I'm also toying with the idea of re barreling and changing the cylinder on my highway patrolman to 45 colt. This might cost a small fortune though, and it may not be worth it. I shot Chris 57's mountain gun at the rondy a few years back, and from what I remember It was a nice shooting rig. I can't remember what it actually weighed though. I think around 36-38 oz. About what my SA Ruger 45 colt weighs.

Decisions, decisions. Looks like another gun project is looming. I keep telling myself leave it alone. I just sort of feel obligated to search for the best after going this far.

I think I'll go sleep on it.

Ozark

ryanusmc
08-29-2009, 09:32 PM
One thing I would like point out to everyone, and to remind myself, is that when being charged by man or beast MOVE YOUR FEET!! Lateral movement is best as your periphrial(sp?) vision can pick up obsticals.

Try it, train with it.

elmbow
08-29-2009, 10:02 PM
..... I shot Chris 57's mountain gun at the rondy a few years back, and from what I remember It was a nice shooting rig. I can't remember what it actually weighed though. I think around 36-38 oz. About what my SA Ruger 45 colt weighs.

Decisions, decisions. Looks like another gun project is looming. I keep telling myself leave it alone. I just sort of feel obligated to search for the best after going this far.

I think I'll go sleep on it.

Ozark
I like it when you do projects Ozark, go for it.

I recall weighing my last 25 4" and it was a tad heavier than my ss 5" 1st gen Vaquero. 42 oz sounds about right IIRC. I sure like the balance of the single actions myself, but whatever floats the old boat, eh?

I went out in the strip two days ago with an aquaintance up from Vegas, he's a free lance geologist that spends much of his time working in Central and South America for mining companies and he's pretty well versed in handling a 1911. He had a guest from Honduras with him, a Contra from the Ollie North days, also pretty good with a pistol. We set up a 24"x36" 1/2" steel plate at 20 yards, that had a 4" square swinging door in the center and practiced from leather. Didn't have any timers, just wrist watches, but I think the gentleman from Honduras went away thinking a little more highly of us gringo cowboys. I was able to clear cross draw leather with the Vaquero and put 5 of 6 slugs, (255 cast at 900 fps) into the little swing dingy door in under 9 seconds. I reckon that would be good enough to get 2-3 rds off at an angry water buff before he pounded me into mud. The other gents were both using 5" 1911's and double tapping, so I couldn't really compare my letting off a 6 shot string with their results. Practice plays a huge part in all of this, to be sure, but I really like the way a single action settles back on a target from shot to shot. I was equally fast with a 3" model 60 from a strong side Sparks, but not as accurate, only getting 3 of 5 into the center door, and that was using fiiochi 158 gr semi wadcutter. That little grip on the model 60 is not fast draw friendly for me.

Gambel_Oak
08-29-2009, 11:37 PM
Over the years I have owned several model 25s. My first one in 45 Colt was a 4" blued model with the full heavy barrel. I think it weighed about 42 ounces. I think my 45 Colt mountain gun weighed about what was said - around 36 ounces. I currently carry a 4" 325pd in the back country. The 325pd is 45 acp and it is not being made currently but they weigh about 27 ounces. A couple different companies are now loading 45 Auto Rim ammunition that is the equivalent of standard power 45 Colt loads (basically a 255 gr semi-wadcutter at roughly 900 fps). In that light gun those loads are stiff but managable. The gun definitely carries more comfortably than any other full sized revolver I have ever carried. There is certainly nothing wrong with the model 25 mountain gun either. I carried mine for a number of years and still do occasionally.

scothill
08-30-2009, 09:10 AM
I was just doing some research yesterday after our shooting on friday. Incidently we decided based off are shooting that single action was the way to go unless you where at tooth and nail range then DA was probably the key. For this reason we would both lean to a DA not a Single-action.

According to the sources I could find I calculated that a grizzly is going to cover 44 feet a second or 14.6666 yards from a standing stop based of a 30mph speed. Wikipedia says 109 yards in 6 seconds.

From this Evan and I drew the conclusion that the first and maybe second shot was the most important. This is similar to what Ozark decided. We also decided that in true bear country, grizzly, you are going to want a faster holster. The chest rigs we use are probably not the choice for bear country nor is the safepacker. Something like the survival sheath chest holster would probably be my choice with a pack. It is immaterial if you have time to get it out, but in the event time is limited the speed is good.

I then looked up all of the applicable loads from Buffalo Bore and Double Tap. I also looked up all of the taurus, ruger, S&W, and glock models. Based off that we basically decided that if you had a clean slate to start from the 329pd or 44MG with the light recoil 44m load from BB or a 41mag that could chamber the larger gr rounds (Note Corbon does make a 255gr that Evan's tracker will chamber) was probably the best choice on paper, or at least the place to start. If you are into velocity and ftlbs then the 357 load from BB is an interesting choice. The titanium tracker is no longer made, but if you could find one that worked it is still about the best weight to power ratio out there. This is all based on a round that is around 250grs going around 1350. This load should be managable, but still get the job done.

Weights for the guns mentioned: (taken from the websites supposing new guns)

Pretty much all the vaqueros/blackhawks (4 5/8 barrel length): 45 or 46ozs

44 MG 39.5oz
44 329pd 26oz
41 MG weight not provided
41 tracker ~23ozs
G20 27.68ozs
M60 23.4-24ozs
Redhawks 46-47ozs

So basically, based on all this you want to find the intersection of reliability, accuracy/shootability with your bear load (accurate, big enough to handle the recoil and light enough to manuver easily and quickly as you are shooting at a moving target and you are/should be moving as well), and finally carryability. I personally am willing to carry a few more ozs if it allows me to shoot more accurately and control the gun.

After all of that my conclusions may surprise some. I still think that for me the G20 is the right choice.

1) I am not sure that 250gr is a magic number as no one has been able to provide numbers on how much better it does. RonA and Patrick S have indicated in the past that in their testing the magic number seems to be a heavy for caliber bullet going over 1100fps. The 230gr DT load for the 10mm meets those requirements and the 200gr load does as well. The question would be more velocity or a bigger slug in my mind if I where choosing. Another thing I noticed is that a lot of the velocity numbers for the revovlers seemed to be 6" barrel guns while the 10mms where from the G. A longer barrel on the G should give you more velocity to even the playing field even more.
2) The G does double duty as a town gun when I am in that area. I can and have conceal carried NFrame wheelguns, but with the G it is easier and the G is a better choice for 2 legged critter encounters in my opinion. On my last trip to AK we where basically fishing out of a hotel in Anchorage taking day trips. I took my 1911 and just switched mags when leaving/returning to town.
3) The G has a lightrail which makes night shooting easier.
4) I like the easy of carrying a spare reload and how compact a magazine is over a speed loader, etc....
5) I preceive, based off MY experiences, that the G is a more reliable gun then the revolver. That has been hashed out in other threads and I am not going to redo it.
6) I felt it was entirely easy with the 1911 to get the group size and speed I did while with the revolver I had to push it. This is a practice issue, but since practice time is limited I want to maximize that time for as many uses as possible. A G, with the exception of a thumbsafety, mimics the same controls and handling as my carry gun.
7)The G gives you a better weight to power ratio, much like the titanium tracker, I say that based on my shooting of the BB stuff out of both my MG and 357pd 41 mag as compared to the 230gr DT out of a G20.
8) The handgun is a back up to my rifle.

Our next set of shooting is going to be from the low ready with the tracker and a 1911 as neither of us has a G, and some shooting on the move. However, it will have to wait to figure out if the practice ammo we have is not accurate in Evan's gun or if we need to find some different practice ammo.

I urge others to keep testing and posting. This has opened my eyes to some things and is interesting. Plus shooting is fun.

If anyone wants the excel tables I made with the information so they can sort and manipulate it let me know.

ozarkrambler
09-01-2009, 07:25 PM
***FEEDBACK REQUESTED***

I NEED TO HEAR THE PROS AND CONS OF THE FOLLOWING.

I had a nice visit today with the head man for Bowan Arms. We discussed what options were available for "bear/packing" pistols and I came away with some good info. What started the conversation was my inquiry into the feasibility of changing the bbl. on my 329pd to a steel mountain gun bbl and changing the cylinder to stainless steel. He told me that it was possible to build such a critter, but that it would be the only one in existence. I said cool, that in itself is almost enough to get me to go ahead with the project.

My idea was to add about 5-6 oz of weight, which would get the gun up to about 32 oz. I think this would improve recoil control quite a bit. That would be 4 oz less than my 5"bbl custom ruger blackhawk, which is fairly pleasant to shoot, and would be even more so with a set of sorbathane grips. I had also asked him about the possibility of making this a 45 colt instead of a 44 mag. He cautioned me against this since the cuts on top of the S&W 45 cylinders were very thin, and he has seen some bad things happen to guns that had "nuclear" 45 colt loads put through them. So I think I would stay with the 44 mag.

We also talked about doing some other conversions to some steel framed Smiths which also hold some promise. One in particular was converting my 357 highway patrolman to a 44 mag or a 44 special. With its slim bbl profile it would make a carry weight of around 40oz. This is with a 6"bbl, which would make it a bit less handy to carry but make it a bit more useful in the hunting field. Anyway this is on the back burner till I think the 329 project out a bit more.

On a side note, I talked to the fine folks at Simply Rugged, holster makers in Alaska. I going to be trying one of there Sourdough pancake holsters with the Chest Puller conversion with the highway patrolman this fall and winter. I am curious what the presentation times will be with this rig, and the chief concern, how it performs with the fine packs Patrick produces.

I can't wait for the fall rambling season to begin.

Ozark

evanhill
09-01-2009, 08:21 PM
With the way you shoot the highway patrolman, I don't think I'd touch it. The PD conversion sounds very interesting.

I think the fastest presentation time would be from one of the survival sheath kydex chest holsters, but there's nothing concealed about that setup.

elmbow
09-01-2009, 10:10 PM
I had a Simply Rugged pancake for my 4" model 25 and it swallowed the gun very nicely. A good "field" holster that should adapt to pack configuration, except upside down. Not a heavy, stiffly boned, fast presentation rig, but leaves enough grip showing. How securely the holster is fastened makes a mucho difference. I liked it because it was versatile enough to hold multiple handguns. It was holding a Paclite Mark II, when they both took legs from my hotel room. I'm certain it's enjoying the climate in Mexico these days.

scothill
09-01-2009, 10:14 PM
I did some thinking on the custom gun idea. I think I would be looking at a L frame 5 shot stainless steel 44m or 41m. My thinking is that if you are only worried about the first couple of shots then loosing one is not a big deal. The smaller frame size would make it handier for carry and swinging around to get on target. I would also think that the bigger bore on the barrel and the larger cylinder holes would lighten the revovler. So if you started out with say a stainless GP101 or a 686/586 at round 36ozs and trimmed some weight off of that you would end up with something a bit heavier then the 329pd/357pd in a more compact package and stainless steel to boot.

I echo Evan in that I would leave the patrolman alone. You shoot it very well and for the majority of your outdoors trips it would be just fine. If you are really worried about black bears go with the double tap 180grs or see if you can find some of the 200gr stuff that corbon occasionally makes.

Personally, I have been wondering about a G21 with a 5" slide conversion kit from Lone Wolf in 10mm.....

disillusionedpatriot
09-02-2009, 10:15 AM
This is too important to wait for the next Rondy! :)

Let's gather some data on just how quickly and accurately various platforms are capable of being shot by a variety of people. We'll also be gathering data on various carry methods as well. Interested in pistol and rifle data. So, here's the challenge:


10 yards
3 shots
Standard 25 yard pistol target (although this doesn't matter so much)
From your chosen carry method, draw and fire three shots as quickly and accurately as you can.
Post the following information

Platform (pistol or rifle type)
Exact cartridge
Carry method (bonus goes to real world carry methods)
Center to center group size
Timer method (shot timer or stopwatch)
Time to first shot (this shows how good or bad the carry method is)
Splits (average time between shots once underway)
Total elapsed time




This is interesting but has anyone collected information on the time for a bear to cover 10 yards?

Big Dipper
09-02-2009, 10:20 AM
Yeah, but the ones that did didn't have the time to write it down before lunchtime. :D

scothill
09-02-2009, 10:24 AM
This is interesting but has anyone collected information on the time for a bear to cover 10 yards?


As I said a few posts ago, 44 feet in 1 sec or 109 yds in 6 seconds. This is something we found out after coming up with the challenge. However, what we are really trying to find out is how fast and accurately you can fire one or multiple shots with your choosen bear gun. In other words hard data to add to the old debate. We set the range as being about as close as we where likely to let a bear get before any charge would be a shooting case. Frankly based on the new speed data, I think that I personally would set that range farther away, but for now 10 yds works. We included from the holster as that is a factor, but frankly numbers from low ready are just as good. We included multiple shots to simulate a missed shot with follow up, and also to be able to see how the heavier calibers and guns impacted multiple shots if you had time to make them.

So far no one who champions the heavier caliber guns with big for caliber bullets has stepped up with any data.

evanhill
09-02-2009, 10:31 AM
This is interesting but has anyone collected information on the time for a bear to cover 10 yards?

Yeah, if you go up in the thread you'll see that both Scot and Ozarkrambler have done some research along those lines. That's where the "1 to 2 shots before contact" idea came from -- starting at 40 plus yards. 10 yards was what we set because bobmn mentioned 10 feet, which seemed really short. We were also thinking that if something happened at 40 yards, it would be 10 yards before you had brought your firearm to bear. A couple of folks posted accounts of encounters that started at a middle distance but had the bear within 10 yards before they got a shot off.

So, 10 yards is kind of arbitrary, but seemed reasonable as a benchmark.

disillusionedpatriot
09-02-2009, 11:24 AM
Yeah, if you go up in the thread you'll see that both Scot and Ozarkrambler have done some research along those lines. That's where the "1 to 2 shots before contact" idea came from -- starting at 40 plus yards. 10 yards was what we set because bobmn mentioned 10 feet, which seemed really short. We were also thinking that if something happened at 40 yards, it would be 10 yards before you had brought your firearm to bear. A couple of folks posted accounts of encounters that started at a middle distance but had the bear within 10 yards before they got a shot off.

So, 10 yards is kind of arbitrary, but seemed reasonable as a benchmark.

Ok, I read the first page and the last, my own fault. Thanks.

ozarkrambler
09-02-2009, 12:48 PM
The GP100 conversion isn't possible. I already checked. It looks like if a person wants to convert something to a bigger bore than a 357, there has to have been a factory chambering in it at sometime. Example, a N-frame 357 can be converted to 44 mag, an L-frame can't. If that makes sense.

scothill
09-02-2009, 12:53 PM
The GP100 conversion isn't possible. I already checked. It looks like if a person wants to convert something to a bigger bore than a 357, there has to have been a factory chambering in it at sometime. Example, a N-frame 357 can be converted to 44 mag, an L-frame can't. If that makes sense.

It does. However, there is an Lframe in .44 spc so I was thinking that it might be possible in .41 or .44 mag

snakey2
09-02-2009, 04:54 PM
I tried something that is an adjunct to this experiment. I rigged up a release system, bought a used basketball (2$ and the approximate size of a bear head or chest) and rolled it down the hill toward me. It is probably slower than a bear but perhaps more bouncy (uneven in its travel). Anyway, the bottom line, it is hard to hit. I can hit it infrequently and I am close sometimes (the tall grass makes seeing where I am hitting problematic) but it is difficult to do. This gives me an idea of how tough it would be to hit a zone that big, on the move, under stress. I am using a Glock 19 with ball ammo.I don't draw and fire (yet) I am just trying to hit it starting when it is about 25 yards away. A rifle would seem to be easier especially with an optic or red dot and I may try that with my Marlin soon. You sure can burn up a lot of ammo trying to hit it though!!!

ozarkrambler
09-23-2009, 08:08 PM
I think I came across a decent deal on a S&W Mountain gun in 44 mag. A guy I was talking to about some service grips for a N frame Square butt happened to have a like new one he said he would sell to me for 550.00 I think this is a pretty good deal since it has already had a trigger and action job. He let me take it home to give it a test run, so I did a bunch of side by side shooting with it and the 329pd. For starters the weight of my 329 w/ the XD 500 grips on it weighs 27.5 oz, the mountain gun with the same grips weighs 38.5 oz. This is only about 3-4 oz more than I was hoping to add to the 329. So that custom bbl and cylinder job I was going to do is not going to happen. I've spent a lot of money in the past cutting weight off of guns but after shooting them side by side I decided that is a 1000.00 bucks I'm just not going to spend.

Anyway on to the shooting. As I stated before the 329 is a fierce handful with full power loads, definitely not something you want to shoot very many of. The new grips help a lot, but it still has some pretty severe recoil velocity. The MG is a bit more pleasant to shoot with the full power loads but not a lot, I'd say that if a dozen rounds in the 329 is plenty to shoot in one session, 18 would be enough for the MG. Recoil velocity was still pretty sharp but not quite as bad. I shot the MG better than the 329, I could draw faster and get on target quicker with a bit faster follow up shots. About 1/2 to 1 sec. faster. I guess the 11oz's in the MG makes a big difference.

I can see a place for both. On a back country fishing trip where the chances of having to shoot it are slim to none, I can see carrying the 329, and it carries better in the Simply Rugged, Chesty Puller chest rig. For day to day carry, and rambling around the woods near the house, or if you plan on doing a rabbit hunt or shooting a bunch, then I'd definitely carry the MG.

Damn, it seems that I have talked myself into buying a MG.

CCH
09-23-2009, 08:26 PM
You really seem to have bad luck when it comes to guns ozark. I'm sorry for your gain.

5x5
09-24-2009, 07:37 AM
Ozark,
Any chance of seeing a pic of your Dave Clay Marlin?

ozarkrambler
09-24-2009, 11:17 AM
CCH, it's a cross I have decided that I must carry to the end.

If I could only write as eloquently as you I'd have people standing in line to give me their guns.


5x5, are you looking for a picture of the 30-30 version? I think there are some shots of it in one of the threads here. I'll try and find it and post the link.

CCH
09-24-2009, 11:28 AM
If there is a line waiting to give me guns I would REALLY like to know where it starts. I hate to keep people waiting.

I've handled Ozark's .30-30 and confess that I had lust in my heart for another man's gun (don't give me any of that Marine stuff about rifles and guns, the term is more encompassing in this case) :D Actually I have lust in my heart for his harem.

evanhill
09-24-2009, 01:24 PM
I posted this on a different thread without realizing that I was thread jumping. Posted here as well for completeness --

My answer to the ubiquitous "which bear pistol" question has always been "the biggest thing you can shoot quickly and accurately". That was the whole point with the bear gun challenge -- try to get together some real world data of what that means.

Based on the few responses that have been received the conclusion is that the biggest load that can be shot quickly and accurately in a pistol is either:


255+ grain bullet going no faster than 1000fps
180 - 250 grain bullet going 1350fps (faster even? Ozark, what is your 240grn load doing?)
We still haven't seen data from anyone indicating that a bullet heavier than 250 grain can be shot quickly and accurately at a velocity over 1000fps.

It also looks like the lightweight platforms are capable of the necessary speed and accuracy with these loadings, even if they're not fun to shoot.

ozarkrambler
09-25-2009, 06:59 PM
My 240gr load is running about 1300fps.

I've been shooting a 220gr. load with 5.8 gr. of 231 the last few evenings and it is a nice soft tack driver in both the 329 and the MG. This is a load you can shoot all day long out of both guns.

elmbow
09-25-2009, 07:45 PM
I think the gauntlet has been thrown vis a vis single vs double action on this bear shooting thing so...my everyday load in the 5" Vaquero is a 250 round nose plain base in front of 7 gr 700X and LP primer and it gives about 975 fps. I carry this in a cross draw belt rig. My 7 1/2" Bisley gives closer to 1000 fps with this load and I carry it in a cross draw chest rig. My stout load is a 300 flat nose gas check in front of 18.5 gr Lil Gun and Magum LP primer for 1170 in Vaquero and 1225 in the Bisley. The fixed sight Vaquero is regulated for the "plinker" at 50 yards, while the adjustable sighted Bisley is set up for the "heavy" load at 50 yards. No matter though, from in your face to 15 yards or so, it's all good. I've been out of my heavy loads for a while now but I'll be sitting down at the Dillon this weekend and loading up a hundred or so rounds and out to the practice range we'll go. I'm no cowboy action guy, but I can get the SA's on target pretty quickly, and follow ups with my light loads are pretty fast too. We'll see how follow up shots with my heavier loads go, but I don't feel disadvantaged by the DA proponents.