Wolves put another oufitter out of business!

[Sundles]

Bob, I got your email, great letter! I wanted to apologize for not
getting
> that affidavit to you yet, but it is something I will certainly get to
you!
> I also wanted to let you know that we have decided we will not offer a
late
> hunt at Dome Mountain this season. We decided that contributing to the
> demise of the animal that signifies the Rockies was not something we
wanted
> to be a part of. Certainly, it will be a great financial loss.
>
> Dome Mountain and Max Chase(Point of Rocks) have been a part of this hunt
> for now going on 40 years...imagine the families who were able to enjoy
the
> taste of elk, the old timers who had better opportunity and year after
year
> came back to hunt with us. How about the first time hunter, the son, the
> daughter, the wife or even the husband who were able to have a complete
> hunt, the atmosphere, the comradre, the thrill of the chase? We actually
> tried the highest price possible, hoping this would cut the numbers of
> hunters last season...it did not, which tells me this is a very, very sad
> day! We used to take over 150 hunters per season, many seasons a 100%
> success rate and 100% meat consumption. These hunters were not only
hunting
> for the hunt, they were hunting for the excellent and healthy meat of an
> elk.
>
> All these hunts were conducted as professionally as possible. In the time
I
> have been here...multiply 150 by 6 years, I can only recall 1 elk that I
did
> not find during the late hunt. Incidentally, this hunter was disabled
with
> an artificial leg, followed me on the blood trail for 2 days, then two
more
> after the hunt dates had ended. He chose not to shoot another animal even
> though I was convinced the animal was not fatally wounded!
>
> So, my friend, you are right, the good hunting is over. Only the
strongest
> and most able hunters will find success. What question do people ask me
at
> the sports shows: "What do you think about the wolves?" I used to do my

> best, be political and all that, however being that I have been in the
> field, on horseback, hiking, on stand, etc. nearly 100 days a season, not
to
> mention my time here on the ranch where on any given day I may be up where
> the elk "were". They are gone! I visit old wallows, sweet, cool, green
> grassy meadows where I once could see an elk, anytime in the summer, I
would
> see the bulls hiding out, the musky smell giving them away. Now, when I
> visit these areas, I can see some old trails cut in the hillsides, tracks
of
> bulls from the past frozen in the mud. The wallows are still wet, but the
> water is clear, nothing visits them now but the large canine, his tracks
> evident and easily distinguished. When I see one of these prints, I have
to
> wonder to myself, how many elk have you taken and how many memories have
you
> taken from "hunters".
>
> I am not "political" any more. People need to know the truth. I am not
> going to be nice any more, I am going to tell it like it is. If they want
> to step outside, I'll even hold the door for them. You can count on me!
I
> may not be a biologist, but I bet I have better field notes than any of
them
> in this area. I can count, I can remember, and I can subtract...that is
all
> you need to know as far as the math goes...the only time you need your
> "addition" skills is when you are counting wolves. I have been the one to
> find the cows, eviscertated, left rotting, so that even the Raven has to
> work for a meal. For days I have left them lay, thinking maybe the wolves
> will come back and finish the meal. Since the wolves have pretty much
> pushed the coyotes out, the carcass rots for the Ravens, Magpies and
> eventually the maggots. I just don't find one or two in the spring, I
find
> a dozen, and I am not even looking. In the fall, when I am back in the
> hills, I find more.
>
> So, in 2004 during January and February, there will be no hunting on Dome
> Mountain Ranch. I will, with my posse as always be patrolling the
boundary.
> 100 years ago sheepherders may have done the same thing watching their
> flock, unfortunately, because those least informed make the important
> decisions I can only sit by and watch as the wolves eat, but you can bet
> I'll be on a horse that hates dogs!
>
> Keep up the fight! JB

Folks, there are many outfitters in MT and ID that are running into worse than JB explains in the above letter. Of course if you read the stuff put out by the government, the above stories are never told. YOU'VE GOT TO LIVE HERE TO SEE IT AND KNOW ABOUT IT.
>

[Ebon Lupus]

Don't think of it as being put out of business, Tim. Think of it as natural selection and survival of the fittest /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Don't blame the wolves, blame the humans for their inability to adapt. One can only fight against something so long before growing weak. You have grown so very weak, human, and the wolves are circling.

Salve, Woof, & OM
Ebonlupus /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif ~

[Tim in Nevada]

There you are wolfie. Can you teach me to catch say a hundred or so mice without weapons? Do you use your great big bad teeth? What other kinds of animals can you catch without weapons? Do you consult with mother earth and father moon before going on a fishing trip without a pole? Tim

[Sundles]

ebon baby,

If wolf reintroduction is "natural selection", why did the wolves need to be reintroduced?

It would be a dream come true to have wolves circling me, ebon.

[Ebon Lupus]

Human beings have separated from the natural process. They are the only animal that populates an area, runs out the other animals, pollutes it until it's a miserable place to live, breed out of control until they are virtually wading in their own sperm, and then spread to ravage the next beautiful place. Wolves, along with the rest of human-plague victims, were there first, and like in a body that is freeing itself of the virus, the old cells shall move back in to heal the body.

You and you kind is a virus, Mr. Sundles. Consider me and my kind the antibodies. And we are multiplying.

You won't have your guns when they circle you this time /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Salve, Woof, & OM
Ebonlupus :o~

[Silver]

Yes! And when there are no more 'outfitters' left, Mother Earth will smile once again.

As a Cherokee, I follow my Native beliefs as were taught to me. Animals should only be hunted in the case of necessity, not of one of greed, or trophies. Once taken, there is a loss of life and one should leave a gift for it’s soul. They have given their life to sustain that of a human, the ultimate gift.

The wolf is my brother, and lies of those like Sundles are well known across the states now. Even hunters say he is of 'lying tongue' and Sundles is making even THEM look bad.

Maybe you will get away with your lies Sundles; maybe the gov’t and all it’s crookedness will let you off the hook, but you are nothing more then a killer. You are an abuser of animals and your wife! Someday you WILL answer to a Higher Power and only then will you be made to sink to your feeble knees and cry at your wasted existence of killing and abuse of animals and humans alike.

How can one even question your motives as being ‘good intentioned’ when you clearly have no regard for not just the life of animals; but none for your own family whom you claim you love so much that you protect them (your ‘wife’) from your fantasies of a wolf attack? Disgusting Sundles and you should be ashamed to show your face. Karma…..karma will surely come your way someday.

Wolves roamed free before the ignorance of man and my ancestors lived among them peacefully. The greediness of "outfitters" and cattle ranchers whom have virtually 'stolen' and stripped government land (that I might add was ours first and never stripped of it's resources by the Natives) have only one thing on their minds...

Just as it says in history, it speaks today just as loud.....it is the old mighty $$$$$$$

Silver

[Silver]

OOOPPPPSSSS,

I just read where it is Sundles son who was charged as a wife beater. Notice I said CHARGED not prosecuted as such.

Guess the old saying sticks here. The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree obviously.

Ignorance breeds ignorance; looks like the whole damn Sundles family needs some help! Sad part is, they are legally allowed to own and use firearms.

Oh well, I get paid to deal with idiots like him and his son.

Silver

[shu]

Silver-

I find your take on history rather interesting. Since 'your people' did not take trophies, perhaps you could explain how they came to possess the antlered heads of mature cervids, grizzly claw necklaces, or various eagle parts... you may also want to do some reading on just how much impact indigenous peoples had on wildlife populations (through fire, 'jumps' and overhunting) before you proclaim them the Ultimate Stewards of Mother Gaia.

While it is certainly "good fun" to romanticize the wolves and Native Americans, there are actually more constructive uses for your time than veiled threats and personal insults. How about you come back when you can make an intelligent point?

shu

[Silver]

Shu-

I am not going to bother to answer your post except to say, you know nothing about Natives, our ways or how we live. We used and still use every single part of the animal taken [bones, hides, intrels, ect...] and bless that animal as well.

I HIGHLT doubt that you; big white hunter uses every single part of an animal; you only take what you can pack back out and want trophied.

I suggest you go to a local pow wow, tell them you are a big, brave hunter [who probably baits and kills] then come back and tell me I do not know what I am speaking.

Silver

Silver,

Posting while you're at work?

[shu]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know nothing about Natives, our ways or how we live.</div></div>Silver, you may well be right--sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees. But I have been to a local pow-wow or two and just might have a better grasp on Natives than you think....

As to who knows whom better, you make a lot of assumptions. You might be surprised how many whites 'bless' their kill; I don't haul out the entrails, I leave them for the 'yotes as they work hard to earn a living around here; and the last few 'trophies' I packed out were ears.

I am full-up on romanticizing and insults but still waiting on that intelligent post.

Ever seen that Gary Larsen Far Side cartoon where all the Indians are sitting around the fire and the chief is holding this little squiggly worm thing? The little boy asks him what it was and he says "This is the part of the Buffalo we never found a use for".

Lets not take all this too seriously. Indians had an impact but did they extirpate anything? Thats not rhetorical. I really don't know the answer.

[Davey]

silver,

as a fairly neutral(i have no experience w/wolves)but interested observer i have a couple questions..

native who? it's a well known fact that the people(s) commonly thought of as "native americans" migrated here via the bering strait. All "native americans" have their old stories of this occurence, as well as legends of the people who were here before them, who they exterminated. They stole the land from the people who were here before them, as you are accusing others.
Are you debating this?

The reason that the preponderance of native americans lived a nomadic existance was that they acted in the same manner as you are condemning..they literally hunted an area out of game, then moved on.
Are you debating this?

Still waiting for an answer to the questions posed by Shu re. fire drives and jumps, very well documented hunting tactics.

IN reality,conservation practices started with the "white eyes".

As far as trophy hunting/using all parts of the animal/harmony with nature nonsense...trophies, both hunting and war were a HUGE part of native american way of life, and their are several predator species who waste much of what they kill...coyotes, cougars, wolves, bears, to name only a few, yet you are condemning this as not natural.

natural selection. re-introduction of a species.
can you say oxymoron? I knew you could.

I haven't read where any of the people you are so vehemently condemning are claiming to be perfect. As far as karma/judgement day/etc... get off your soapbox...for those of us that believe in a supreme being, judgement shall be between the relevant parties, are you so vain that you believe your opinion matters in the least.Judge not lest you be judged yourself. If there is no supreme being as some believe,as they have, dare i say, the God given right, then it really won't matter after all, will it?

I'm really wondering if you can answer my questions in a polite, intelligent, manner; or if you will resort to the veiled threats and criticism you seem to favor in lieu of an persuasive argument.

[shu]

Mr. Lowry-

I don't know of any species extirpated by the Indian. While some of their methods certainly had wide-ranging effects, I really don't think they had the technology for extinction without some outside factor (i.e. early man AND weather in regard to the wooly mammoth).

I also don't know of any species my 'tribe' has extirpated. Rather than split ourselves by bloodline to better lay blame, perhaps we would be further ahead by accepting ourselves collectively as 'Man' and trying to clean up some of our messes....

As an aside, I also like wolves (though not the reintroduction) but never made the jump to include myself with the pro-wolf extremists.

shu

Some were nomadic, some had permanent settlements. Some speculate the war games were intended to keep populations from rising above the carrying capacities for hunter-gatherer societies. For intact ecosystems, it does follow a diffusion equation: the prey is not necessarily wiped out but can also be chased off. The predator follows with some lag time, life and death goes on.

Some say Manifest Destiny is what caused the explosion of development of the West, and conservation was an afterthought pushed to the front by folks like Muir and Roosevelt, the few who were acutely aware of what was rapidly disappearing.

A black-and-white picture cannot be presented where its not at all warranted.

shu, you're right about your forward-looking approach. But I find it interesting to try to disentangle the history that got us to the point we are at today.

As an aside, my grandfather, who gave my Eastern tribe a single name and got the tribe recognized by Congress, thought pow-wows were ridiculous.

David,

Bit by bit you come out of the closet.