Anti-hunting

[DH]

This is a quote from another forum. This guy claims not to be against hunting. His statement is sort of like somebody saying 'I am not against *** as long as it is used for procreation'.

Since this is a hunting group I would like some comments about the hunting/ anti-hunting feelings of the statement.

"To the end, though, I'll maintain that there is something fundamentally wrong (sick, disgusting) about someone who enjoys killing animals for anything other than food, and that includes trophy hunting, game farms, and the jerk-offs who shoot wolves (and other endangered species) out of fear or hatred or some misguided macho attitude. And it *appears* to me that Wyoming is run by that type of person, since that's what they're proposing as their new management plan (predator status outside of YNP/GTNP and *some* adjacent wilderness areas). Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure looks that way from here."

[Kevin]

Yup. He's not anti-hunting. In another news flash, the Pope is not Catholic.

[pointer]

I wouldn't say that he is anti-hunting, just that for him 'hunting' is a process in collecting food. The other types of hunting is disparrages are just variations on a theme, of which is doesn't like.

I think your analogy with *** is pretty spot on, and I know many (raised Catholic in a predominantly Catholic town) who feel that way.

[Kevin]

Right, he's not anti-hunting, he's anti-hunter. And his logic would further extend that since we don't really need to hunt for food, we shouldn't hunt either.

There is no practical difference, just different words to mean the same thing.

I understand the "come from" but it has a very anti-hunter flavor to it. Most hunters put a lot more into the hunt than just putting meat on the table. It's a little bit like telling me I shouldn't ride my bike unless I have someplace that I "have to go". What if I "want to go" so I can enjoy the ride?

[razorsharp]

DH,

Couldn't you have substituted 'coyote' for 'wolf' to keep things mov'in?!! Kidding.....

Okay, I see a couple of issues. First, I think the guy is somewhat honest in that he differentiates meat hunting from trophy. Seems he should be entitled to that opinion. I, personally, can see why someone would take offense to certain types of hunting just as I can see the arguments for both sides of many issues. Some people like to watch and study birds, snakes, monkeys, etc. Should they get off on killing them too?
So if someone sees a bull elk as majestic and beautiful and maybe only gets a chance to see one every five years, or so, then it would seem normal to me that they would be troubled by those that want only to remove that animal from it's element and hang it on the wall.

However, since you brought up the *** analogy I would add that I do see trophy hunting as a sort of perversion, just as I see pornography as a perversion of the gift of intercourse, or drunkeness a perversion of the gift of wine, or gluttony of food, slaughter of the buffalo, slavery, etc. etc.
Man's tendency is always towards greed and pride.

Those that believe in a Creator have a different worldview than the evolution crowd and it often shows up in their outlook on killing big game animals, at least that has been my experience.
I support the right of others to hunt what they want and why they want and I don't judge them other than to note that I can't help but pitty so many who miss what I believe is the spirit of the hunt.

RSD

RSD,

Very well put ... Ahmen to the spirit of the hunt.

[shu]

RSD-

I did not realize that creation and evolution were mutually exclusive....

[razorsharp]

Shu,

Now you du!!

[imported_Randy]

Hey guys,
This is an interesting thread along with the one below entitled 6th sense. What I have to add ties into both sorta, so here goes.
I started hunting strictly as a meat hunter and was always slightly amused by guys that were after the biggest set of horns they could bag, heck some of them didn't even seem to enjoy the meat of their harvest. I started guiding as it was the only way I could afford to be in country and out of FBKS for longer than the typical 10-14 day hunt. The longest I have been in country was a 6 week stretch and the ONLY thing I missed from town was my family. Most of that time I ate caribou 3x's a day I was o.k. with that but the hunting clients didn't care for it much. Plus as most of them were really interested in the trophy aspect of hunting they had a tendency to look down their noses of my view of hunting as a means to provide tablefare. However there were exceptions, mostly deer hunters from Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin who understood the value I placed on the meat and I thank those guys for some wonderful days afield with them! I hope for the others that they came away with a little better understanding of my position of hunting, I know that my views have changed from my experiences because of the guiding. My wife is 1/2 Athabascan Indian and having been exposed to that culture I have much respect for the elders of those people and their reverence and respect for all game animals. To this day I have yet to kill a nuisance squirrel around my house or a moose for the freezer or a sheep that I don't experience a yin/yang sort of sensation, I am glad to have accomplished what I set out to do, but for me there is always a sense of remorse or sadness for taking that life.
But my views have evolved concerning trophy hunting and here's why. With moose if a big trophy moose is properly taken care of and aged the meat is every bit as good as a younger moose, which at one time you couldn't have convinced me of that fact. And if you are going to take the time to skin a moose and butcher him it's just a bit more work to do a larger animal but more meat goes in the freezer as a result. Secondly an animal is only in their prime for a short period of time, part of the trophy aspect is just a result of genetics and feed availability, but most moose hit their prime at 6-8 years of age and then begin to fade in both antler quality, meat quality and physical prowess
(sound familiar any of my 40+ comrades?) they participate in the rut vigorously at the 6-8 year period and thus have less fat and less energy to make it through the winter they are far more suceptible to winter kill, through starvation or as prey to wolves than most of their younger comrades. If elk are similar then the odds of someone that only gets out every 5 years seeing that same magnificent bull elk again are nil whether someone takes it during hunting season or not! Even if in defiance of all odds that elk were still alive they would not recognize it for the same elk even 3 years later if elk are as moose are. By very definition of attaining trophy status, the animal in pursuit has been wary enough and physically competent enough to survive, so the pursuit and taking of such animal is in all likelihood a greater challenge to harvest.
So if that wonderful specimen of nature that through genetics, good feed and the ability to stay alive is to be immortalized in his prime his only chance is to end up on someone's wall. The Disneyland version of some people's view of nature is pretty far removed from the reality of nature, the moose is not going to lay down peacefully in his sleep after watching his grandchildren play and die. He most likely will die from starvation or in his weakened state be eaten alive by wolves, not very happy endings but that's the reality.To me it's sort of like would I rather be struck down by a heart attack and have it end or languish for years with cancer and Alzeimers? There are worse fates than sudden death IMO. AK's game laws are set up just for this theory, the perpetuation of the species is more readily assured by only harvesting those animals that fit the trophy definition whether they be sheep, moose or bear. So as an individual I have certainly evolved in my acceptance and participation of trophy hunting even if some of it has been mandated by law it just makes sense for the game populations. Just my long winded view from AK and I have really enjoyed this thread and the 6th sense one. Thanks, Randy

[Kevin]

I find odd the comment that trophy hunting is a form of perversion. What is perverted about placing the effort, training, time, and, yes, money, to take the biggest elk in the valley? To choose to go home without, if need be, in the hope that the big one is just around the next bend in the trail. To hike farther, hunt harder and scout more for the one chance at the big one...

Every bowhunter is a trophy hunter, as we limit our weapons to pursue game with greater skill and stealth. Every smokepole hunter the same. Or even the folks on this board who hunt with only the pack on their backs, miles in, to do it their own way.

Further, once you buy into the notion that only meat hunting has a purity to it, you fall into the trap. Since you can get all the meat you want at the local grocery store, hunting is no longer necessary. And since you don't need it, it should be banned.

Think I'm kidding? Part of the argument for banning certain types of guns is that "you don't need that..." This is America, doggone it! Let some bureaucrat determine what you "need" and you're restricted to only 2 pounds of meat and six potatoes per month. You don't "need" a DVD player, or air conditioning or.....

Forget that. Trophy hunting is a noble pursuit of wild game, just as training to win the Boston Marathon is a noble pursuit, or to win the Superbowl, or any other form of competition. To denigrate as a form of perversion is an affront to the sport. And to the legions who enjoy it.

[Sundles]

Kevin,

There have been years when I have pased up at least (I wasnt counting) 100 bulls and still not filled my tag because the bull I wanted could not be found, even though I had seen him earlier in the year and I know he was there some where.

Also, as soon as I pull the trigger, my hunting season is over and the fun ends. I love hunting, but not necessarily killing. However, I dismiss those that claim to be good hunters of a certain species, but have NEVER killed one.

Normaly I trophy hunt, but not always. Once in a while I'll shoot a rag horn bull for meat or these little forked horn Mule deer that live on our farm fields are very tasty. Meat hunting is no more or less noble than trophy hunting.

[razorsharp]

You guys are right!! I'm rescinding my trophy hunting statement and my Creation vs. Evolution statement.
The problem is in definition and in trying to explain particulars. Too many phrases are loaded as can be seen by Kevin's statement about the purity of meat hunting. I, for one, lumped meat hunting with trophy hunting (did not support it) and yet it was taken backwards.
I make the same mistake with these moral and ethics threads--I often have presupps as I read through and add ideology to simple statements because I think I know where a guy is coming from.

Here is what I am saying, with regard to the original post. If Randy, for example, feels some remorse whenever he kills, and I think that typical of those who see animals as more than a resource, then how can we blame the non/anti-hunter, who see's say, a dog or dolphin, and has a similar respect, for taking that to what could be a logical conclusion, that a deer, elk, bear, is like a dog or dolphin, and voicing opinion, concern, or remorse for the 'senseless' (in their mind, come on) killing of a 'precious life' ?

It took Randy a long time and experience to change his views and that is how it was for me. I started out with a six pack, pickup, and rifle in search of antlers, in season or out. I graduated to a new set of values and views. How can I 'educate' someone else on that?

In my statements of perversion I prefaced trophy hunting with 'sort of' because, in my mind, the problem I have with it, doesn't exactly parallel the examples I gave. I should have gone on to explain.
But still, it may have been taken to heart by some because of the presupps despite that it is my own personal feelings and experience that I am sharing.

Randy explained better his reasoning for his views. But they are based on what makes sense to him based on his experience. There is pragmatism in that. It's okay to kill this or that because it results in this or that and this or that makes sense to me. So YOU become the judge of what is right or wrong, ethically, all within the bounds of societies legal systems.
Someone could make the argument that those animals that we take should be left to die, as nature would have, even if drawn out and painful, in the wild, because weasles, eagles, flies, etc. have to eat too. But many won't hear those statements because of presuppositions.

I look at Kevin's post and I see, top to bottom, pragmatism. I'm not talking about whether his facts or experience are correct or accurate. I'm talking about how we justify our actions.
I have to do the same thing to justify what I do in the field. But I don't box it up and make it someone else's law to abide by.

We like to put boxes around our beliefs and categorize. And in the name of law and order our Fish and Game dept. do that to our benefit. But within those bounds we do not have to.
We are trying to umbrella all hunting in the name of saving it and we scamper around trying to put labels and build walls around all it's aspects.
But hunting is not golf, like it or not, and it has nothing to do with America. It's unethical to cheat in golf, and many do, but you don't hear a public outcry.

We are killing animals, and there is an inherent elevated responsibility there that transcends law and order and the American way, at least for many people. I for one, respect the fact that that responsibility is variable from one individual to another and so I don't judge, outwardly.
However, if you ask me my opinion I will give it to you.

-death

My best friend in college used to stomp mating grasshoppers, claiming that "Is there a better way to die?". /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

[razorsharp]

I think that really sums it all up. Thanks Dave.

[Davey]

i'm not sure if i can add anything after the "grasshopper stomper", but i'll try...

i think part of the problem is in defining a "trophy hunter"...

my son(s)' first white tail will be a trophy regardless of the score, and will be mounted.
and eaten.

i have a trophy on the wall that is only a trophy to me because of the circumstances and the difficult shot required.

I agree that it is indeed the spirit of the hunt that counts above all,and when i think trophy hunter what comes to mind is an enclosure where the guides try to keep the hunter away from the fence. Would that appeal to me? Absolutely not, will i defend the right to hunt that way? without question.

I don't agree with the "trophy hunter" that removes the trophy from the carcass and leaves, i think the animal deserves more respect than that, although i am neither educated nor eloquent enough to argue my position as well as others here in this forum. I know the carcass provides for the scavengers, etc...just my own idea of right & wrong...if we were all the same the world would be a pretty boring place.

just my .02

davey

[Patrick]

Davey--

Plenty of eloquence. Good thoughts too.

[Ebon Lupus]

To all,

With this thread I must say I'm gaining respect for all of you. I know this is probably something you could easily live without *chuckles* but no matter.

As I see it, there is little difference between creation and evolution. It is creative to evolve and evolution creates. I see the motion of life as one that functions as a continual, progressive, and dynamic multiform, that conditionally interacts with it's environment for the purpose of growing stronger and more efficient. When all the systems are in a state of mutual interplay, not only are life forms improved, but the environment as well; this is the natural process.

There is NOTHING wrong with hunting for what you need to live. There is NOTHING wrong with the joy of having succeeded in getting what one needs to live. The spirit of the hunt is interplay of nature; a being fit to take in love with a being fit to give. The spirit of the hunt is not killing, but in perpetuating the life cycle and in giving life to another in ones own sacrifice. One who dies to feed another is not wasted.

When you stand in the woods can you see the evolution and creation all around you? Can you smell the interplay of life and death in the breeze? The sweetness of the coniferous sweat, the musky dankness of decay, and the tender young sprouts growing from that decay? It's a cycle that goes around and around; life feeding on life; death is just a state where one dream fades and another dream comes into focus. Can you hear the wind through the trees, see the light and the power of nature as the wind blows the clouds and the water rushes through the mountain stream? I think you can. I think you are in love with it and wouldn't want to hurt it for the world. I think you feel both humbled by it all and at the same time a significant part.

Have you ever raised a child who wanted something, but you couldn't let him have it because you knew for a fact it could be harmful? Have you seen how he distressed at not having his own way... your love for him may have caused him to cry... he may have even felt betrayed. But your better sense was not betrayal... it was doing what you had to do for his good and protection. Our natural resources work this same way. We are often children who want things that by having harm us. We must discipline out lust and control ourselves so that we do not endanger what we care most for.

Human beings are predators. Human beings are out of control because they have not the wisdom to control the technology they have given birth to. Human beings have distanced themselves from something they long to be a part of.

You want to be the predator... you want to live the life of the predator... you want to hunt and feel a part of that powerful beauty of the natural world. But you are misguided by your lust. You want to hold onto what you are losing; you need to learn to hold on to all of it though, and not just the part that suits you.

Revitalize the land... return it to it's former glory... tighten your belts and let the earth that you love heal in the fashion it developed under. Take responsibility for what you love and know the spirit of the hunt for what it is. Show your respect, make your sacrifice, and then enjoy being the predator and the caretaker of the earth.

Wolves and other predators want the same things you do. To be what they are and live as they do. You should understand this and relate to it. How would you feel if an alien race landed on earth and started killing off all the human beings just because they thought of them as pests - even though this was the human's home and they developed and grew here? Wouldn't this be wrong? Might does not always make right. It depends upon how the might is applied and what it benefits in the long run.

Please revitalize the earth and return it to it's former glory before it is lost from us forever.

Salve, Woof, & OM
Ebonlupus :o~