View Full Version : XTL vs E&E. or XTL+E&E vs. Scout for EMR

Woods Walker
05-31-2006, 03:47 PM
After months of saving the time has come for my first Kifaru pack. Money is tight so I want to get this right. The pack is going to be an EMR in MC. However now the question comes what else to get with the pack? I just canít order everything so I must pick and choose. I was looking at the XTL for the EMR and an E&E but now realize that I must pick between them. What do you guys think? Would I get more for my money with the EMR XTL or EMR with E&E? The price is about the same.

By the Same lines if I call in the goalies and reach real deep in my pockets would I be better off getting a Scout for a day pack or XTL + E&E as the price is about the same.

XTL adds some 77.00 plus 1.5 lbs
E&E is 84.00 plus 1 lb

Scout is 174 .00 plus 2 lbs this is about 10 bucks more than XTL and E&E combo

The price and weight of XTL and E&E are about the same. So just checking to see what others have done.


Does the Scout need a belt to attach to the EMR?

05-31-2006, 04:15 PM
Woods, if it were me, I would initially go with the standard EMR and the E&E. For what you're looking for, I think you will get the most use out of that combo. Later on, you could always add some other pieces. Hope this helps.

Technically, you could attach a Scout without a waistbelt to an EMR, but the Scout really needs a waistbelt to work well, so it can be used the way it was designed for, which is a lumbar pack.


05-31-2006, 04:29 PM
You are not alone /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

I have exactly the same problem facing me.
I intend to order a ZXR (MC) around November when dollars are available but hope to purchase accessories about July when tax return comes in /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

My Ozzy dollars are always at a strech so I intend to purchase E&E plus 2 x Long Pockets (Side Zip) initially and if funds alow get the XTL with ZXR later. If I can't afford then will just get standard Zulu Lid and retro fit XTL at later date. I think the E&E will give more flexibility in the short term.

Personally I'm not a scout fan, the concept is not for me but the biggest problem we have is that Kifaru are giving us too many choices /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

I will never complain again when the "Broom Jockey" spend 1/2 hr in the store choosing a hand bag.

Hope that helps (or have I just further complicated your choices) /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Woods Walker
05-31-2006, 08:35 PM

I think you are right. The E&E is only 1 lb for a little day pack/tipi grab pack. I am thinking about the weight issue because that is the thing that is forcing me to dump my UM21. They put too much worthless stuff in that pack like internal compression panels etc that just packed on the pounds. I carry a ruck to hold gear not extra pack weight. The small bottom zipper and no pals webbing on the belt didn't help out. But I did like the comfort compared to the Alice or my Molle 1.

I think the E&E is best used with a Dock and lock set up. Does it come with everything I need to dock and lock it to the EMR? I think for a over night pack your Zulu with a medium pod on the bottom is nice. If the EMR works out that would be my pick to replace the UM21 patrol pack. In my view this was the best part of the whole system (yea I didn't care for the waist pack). The patrol pack was too thin but it does fit two molle long pockets on the back pals webbing so this makes it usable. Still that Zulu with POD and padded pals belt will do much more.

Three more question then I will leave you alone.

1. I have a Kifaru small stove. What pockets would fit this. It goes into a molle long pouch but would a Back pouch work? It would fit in an E&E so is the back pouch the same size. If so this maybe a future add on. I can't leave home without a wood stove in winter.

2. Do people use medium pod on the bottom of the Zulu? How does it work out for a late spring/summer/mid fall bag? Will a large pod fit on the Zuluís bottom?

3. I have a thing for having a canteen on my belt. You guys have anything like the SDS canteen pocket? Does having a canteen on the belt effect comfort etc. This is the only place I can get to the water without a horse and pony show. Unless you know a better spot on the ruck? I like camelbak type stuff but always carry canteens too. They are practical for backcountry.

Dan M
05-31-2006, 08:41 PM
I concur with Mel. I have an EMR, Scout, E&E, and a ZXR with XTL. I have read alot of your posts on the Hunting Side and think that the E&E will suit you better. The XTL is more of a "go bag" when detached. With a single shoulder strap, it is more suited "everyday carry" as you go from vehicle to vehicle or command post to command post (or as your "frag bag" for clearing nasty places). The Scout is designed for those who want to "fight light" ditch the whole rucksack fight with an "uber buttpack/belt kit" along with their chest rig. Makes a nice EDC bag though too for the laptop and miscellanous papers taht piel up too quickly for me.
Go with the E&E. It will be a great combo as your Kifaru "starter kit".

Woods Walker
05-31-2006, 09:24 PM
Dan M

Yea you guys are right; I guess that is why I asked the questions. Better to get info from people that have used these packs rather than spend time and money reinventing the wheel. My main nemesis is not the IED but the deer tick so I will pass on that Scout.

05-31-2006, 10:26 PM

The E&E comes complete with everything you need to Dock n Lock it to an EMR.

The E&E and Back Pouch are the same size bag, and yes, the small stove will fit.

All the Pod sizes will fit on the bottom of a Zulu, but the medium Pod is the most popular. A medium Pod should easily handle a 0 degree bag.

I think canteens or water bottles on the pack waistbelt are uncomfortable, even though they are doable. Better option is a Nalgene bottle in a Liter Pouch Plus, mounted on the side of your EMR sleeping bag compartment. The Liter Pouch was designed to offer one hand access from the side of your ruck. DiabloDawg, from here on our message board, used one at the Bataan March while competing on the Kifaru team. In fact, I was with him on the Kifaru team that year, and personally saw him accessing his Nalgene bottle from the Liter Pouch, one handed throughout the event. He had it mounted on the side of his MMR.


Woods Walker
06-02-2006, 08:52 AM
Thanks Mel.

I just ordered my EMR standard (large belt normal lid) with E&E in MC. But one more question. Are Grommets worth getting or are they more trouble (let water in too) than they are worth. I just ordered so I do have time to add them. I cross some streams but that is about it.

Dan M
06-02-2006, 12:14 PM
Based on whay you just described I'd skip the grommets. I have used my EMR in our combat water survival test. Thread below.
EMR in the Water (http://forums.kifaru.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000974)
LF Stud Board Link (http://lightfighter.net/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=7336015661&f=9046084761&m=186103506 1&r=1271035061#1271035061)

The Kifaru fabric is extremely water resistant. So if you are doing alot of swimming or boating with your ruck, then get the grommets. Otherwise, I'd skip. You will only need the grommets if you spend a good time with the pack actually in and under the water.

06-02-2006, 01:12 PM
You're on the money with the EMR and the std toplid with the E&E.
I don't always have a need for the volume that the EMR can handle. this time of year mine is compressed down quite a bit. I'm afraid I would keep too much in a XTL toplid.
E&E is really cool for use as a smaller gear bag. I have not used it much docked to my EMR, maybe later in the fall and winter.

Woods Walker
06-02-2006, 06:03 PM

I was thinking there is a greater chance of the pack's bottom being in mud/water than the whole pack so maybe the grommets are more trouble than worth. But looks like Kifaru puts the grommets not on the direct bottom (smart move) Plus even if water gets in how would it get past the sleeping bag with water proof stuff sack pushing up on the grommets. I will think about it this weekend and decide on Monday if I want them added. It is only 15 bucks so I may do it anyways or not maybe not.


The E&E will be for a tipi and small daypack. Tipi pack? Yea I like to have everyday camp gear in a small pack/bag etc. The EMR is real big about the same volume as my UM21. Thinking about putting a wood stove one side and a rife on the other.

She asked me if I was right handed or left? But I didnít order a Gun bearer so it didnít matter. But how is that Gun Bearer? She asked me my paints inseam length. She explained why but I didnít really understand. Well I guess now starts the wait.

06-02-2006, 10:00 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think the E&amp;E is best used with a Dock and lock set up. Does it come with everything I need to dock and lock it to the EMR? </div></div>Not sure you get EVERYTHING you need to Dock &amp; Lock an E&amp;E...

You may need a set of female SR buckles which you'll weave onto the PALS grid of the Mama pack, as shown about halfway down the Accessories Page (http://www.kifaru.net/MGoptions.htm)

Hopefully Mel can set the record straight, but I don't remember getting these with my E&amp;Es.

The wait will become particularly torturous 'round about week 8...

06-03-2006, 12:03 AM
I'm sure I got the extra female buckles with my E&amp;E.

06-03-2006, 04:38 AM
Same - females L&amp;D SR buckles in the chamber.

I've received 2 E&amp;Es - both with females in the chambers.

06-03-2006, 08:35 AM
Straps, the E&amp;E comes complete with an extra set of slotted female buckles. These are usually found stored in the chamber pocket of the E&amp;E. The reason for the extra set of buckles is, if used in an actual E&amp;E situation, you can just click off the E&amp;E and go, instead of having to take the time to remove the 4 SR buckles from the host pack.


Woods Walker
08-16-2006, 04:14 PM
I got my EMR. WOW this is one BIG pack. I think with the large pod I could carry a small car. Where do you guys put the E&amp;E and long pockets. I have one of each. Thinking E&amp;E in the center but not certain about the long pocket. Have not looked over the pack yet still working out how to fit the thing but so far looks real nice. That E&amp;E is first rate too. MC is real cool.

08-18-2006, 04:23 AM
I'd run the long pocket on a side of the pack.
Even with only one you should still be balanced.

Let me know how your E&amp;E handles your small stove.
I just ordered a Paratipi and small stove this week


08-18-2006, 05:19 AM
WW: mind filling it up,wearing it and snap some pics?

Looking to see how big they get when worn.

Woods Walker
08-18-2006, 09:05 AM

I will put the small stove in the E&amp;E and take pic but with all the pals wedding I may just strap it to the pack or toss it into the BIG EMR.


I am going to use the EMR for a I am Never Going Back Home Bug Out Bag so I may almost be able to fill it up. Maybe in a week or so when I get more time I will post a photo of it.

08-18-2006, 09:36 AM
Congrats on your purchase. Probably gonna pull the trigger on a MC EMR in the next couple months.

(Pretty sure the Beach BBQ will push me over the edge.)

Make sure you train with your loadout, and be real careful about footwear, else it will become your Never Gonna Walk Normally Again Bag.

If you haven't already, consider hiking poles.

08-18-2006, 12:37 PM
Woods, you'll have a lot of fun with your EMR, and after awhile, you will see how versatile it really is.

Straps, I'll have a MC EMR for you to try out at the Beach Demo /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif . See you there.


Woods Walker
08-19-2006, 08:27 PM

Pack feels great. I need to load it up but this is the first Military pack that fits me. My waist is a 38 from too much eating etc but if I drop down to a 36 will the large belt still work or should I get a medium at that time as I think a tight belt is key to any pack. I like the belt so much more than my UM21. I can feel the nice grip etc around my fat gut unlike the molded belt on the UM21 or the molle belt that just sucks. The MC pod looks great. The CB webbing color works well with the MC and the OD collar on the pack and POD works well too. I never realized how much cheaper construction is used in the SDS pockets compared to yours. I bet this pack can swallow my all my winter gear with no issues. Looks good for weekend summer trips too.

08-20-2006, 06:27 AM
Woods, as long as that belt will tighten without bottoming out you'll be fine. VERY tight is what I mean...remember that your EMR will be carrying huge loads at times. Should you lose so much weight that there isn't enough adjustment for those last tweaks of tightening under heavy load just holler, and we'll send you a smaller belt. I think if 36 inches is as small as you go you'll still be good.

Woods Walker
08-20-2006, 09:27 AM
36 inches is about it. For me 36 inch waist and 225 means very little body fat and that is my goal but it will take months to drop an extra 25 lbs. I am not built like those boys in GQ magazine. But then again I wouldn't want to be. Looking to carry the tipi/liner/stove and all the rest of the winter gear so yea it would add up to maybe 60-70 lbs for a week winter steelhead trip. How are these packs for cross country skiing? I think with skis I could cover more ground than with my snow shoes. I started cross country skiing last year. I was amazed at how the deer etc seemed to care less about me on the skis. Maybe less noise? Found out water on the bottoms is bad and did a few risky ice crossings that I would never have tried on foot. I think next season that will not be done again. Too risky. I liked the EMR frame length and the way the shoulder straps fit me. On lots of packs the side strap that connects the straps together is too darn near my neck even when adjusted all the way down. But this is not a problem with the EMR. The sleeping bag panel is nice too with the buckle adjustments. I am thinking it will offer a bit more play when stuffing in a large bag and bivy than a zipper pannel.

08-20-2006, 01:00 PM
The packs are excellent for skiing--quite stable, and great center of gravity. However, if you are new to XC skiing 70 lbs. is going to be a challenge!