Liberation Theology, Obama & "Collective Salvation

[FlatbowMB]

While this could just as easily go into the political forum, I thought it would be interesting to hear some theological perspectives of this.

Most of you have probably seen the video of the Rev. Jeremiah T. Wrights' ranting about "Liberation Theology", which in reality is secular humanism thinly, cynically & derisively disguised as Christianity.

While Obama has been accused of suffering from a messianic complex, I wasn't sure if that accusation was overstatement of such tendencies, or if there was substantial evidence to clearly demonstrate such a delusion. This video will definitely shed some light on that.

My question is 'Is he so completely deluded that he truly does believe that he is a modern day messiah, or is he diabolically trying to portray himself in such a way, while he clearly knows better?'. I have often wondered this same thing about some of history's most notorious cult leaders. Here is the video;


Obama's Collective Salvation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuaDC8SGxAM)


BTW, Why does the left always scream the mantra of 'separation of church & state' while giving idiocy like this a thumbs up?

[evanhill]

I sure would like to have a LOT more of the context behind this clip. Did this interview even have a religious context at all? Sure, I heard the term salvation, but my interpretation of the audio is that a black guy is saying that he is feeling guilty that he's doing well in the world when "certain portions of the black community" aren't... So much so that he can't be happy unless he's actively working for their good instead of his own. I can identify with that, although it isn't the kind of personal crusade that I'm interested in a president having.

The wordover commentary that was added by the poster doesn't seem to have much if anything to do with the actual audio.

I haven't picked up on this before, but does this presidential race and election have the potential for igniting a very nasty race war in this country?

[FlatbowMB]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanhill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I haven't picked up on this before, but does this presidential race and election have the potential for igniting a very nasty race war in this country?
</div></div>

Let's hope not. I think alot will have to do with how close Obama gets to, or how far he stays away from racially obsessed militants such as the 'Rev.' J.T. Wright, 'Rev.' Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton.

[evanhill]

I hadn't really paid much attention to the whole race thing and Reverend Wright before listening to this. Obama is part of the Chicago "scene", and I'm guessing going to that church is just part of the program for a certain segment of Chicago society -- so I discounted that influence altogether.

However, this interview snippet, which may well be taken out of context, leads one to believe that one of Obama's primary motivations (if not stated goals) is elevating the political and financial clout of people with a specific skin color. Besides being completely unconstitutional, this could create some big problems.

I had always figured Obama was a socialist. Big surprise there. Now I'm beginning to wonder if he's a Fascist.

[Ralph]

Well, as DP pointed out, Fascism is the culmination of the whole "progressive" thing. The more I find out about this guy, the more uneasy I become. Add in the cultish following, complete with chanting of his name etc. and I start to wonder if we aren't seeing the Anti-Christ.

Please note that I am not one of those Christians whose Bible reading begins and ends with the Book of Revelation but some of the prophesies therein compared to events of the day are disquieting - especially so when combined with several end-of-the-world calendars that seem to focus on 2012.

[powder river 2]

"...with several end-of-the-world calendars that seem to focus on 2012."

Ralph, what are these calendars to which you are referring?

[Ralph]

The Mayan calendar predicts that the Earth will end on December 21, 2012.

Interpretations of the Christian Bible reveal that the date for Armageddon, the final battle between Good an Evil, has been set down for 2012.

The I Ching, also known as the Chinese book of Changes, says the same thing, as do various sections of the Hindu teachings.

Recent solar storms are predicted to peak sometime in 2012.

The pressure under the Yellowstone is building steadily, and geologists have set 2012 as a likely date for the Yellowstone volcano.

[FlatbowMB]

Hopefully I'll be up to date on my taxes by then...

[evanhill]

Ralph, if it was just about anybody else I would dismiss this out of hand as mere cookism. Since it was you, I took the time to reflect on the things you've mentioned.

Here's my take on "end times" thinking, and it is something I've expounded on before from a completely different direction. As beings capable of thought and intellectualization, we have the capacity to look for larger patterns of which we are a part.

We think about politics, economics, ecology, etc. which are systems much larger than ourselves of which we are participants. We (or some of us) try to use this information to guide our personal actions. The problem is that these systems are extremely complex, far beyond our finite *intellectual* abilities to properly comprehend and draw any actionable inferences from (doesn't stop us from trying though).

On the other hand, I believe that we have finely tuned "internal compasses" that are extremely sensitive to the workings and principles of the systems of which we are a part. This is what makes squirrels gather nuts, animals uneasy before an earthquake, etc. If we subjugate our intellect to this compass, instead of the other way around, the things that we "know" help feed into our internal compasses.

We sometimes call this intuition, and christians might refer to it as talking to G-d. I think it is a combination of these two things. In my mind, the frontier between the capabilities that G-d has given us to tune into the rest of creation and direct communication from G-d is murky indeed. In some ways it doesn't matter, because both ways of thinking about it still require subjugation of the intellect to the internal compass.

Circling back to end times thinking -- the various bodies of knowledge that you reference are nothing more than larger patterns and systems that are beyond our intellectual grasp, just like the rest of creation is. As such, I believe it is a mistake to draw an intellectual conclusion such as "the world will end in 2012, so I should do X and Y right now". That gives our intellect too much power.

The proper approach is to follow our internal compass, which will of course be informed by this intellectual possibility, but will also be informed by so much more, including at times direct communication from G-d.

So, in the end, my answer to your hesitant supposition is "maybe yes and maybe no, but it doesn't really affect how we should be living our lives and where we should be taking our guidance from".

[scothill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanhill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I haven't picked up on this before, but does this presidential race and election have the potential for igniting a very nasty race war in this country?
</div></div>

My understanding is that yes that is basically what Wright has been preaching for many years.

And here is a quote from a journalist warning of exactally that if McCain wins.

"If McCain wins, look for a full-fledged race and class war, fueled by a deflated and depressed country, soaring crime, homelessness - and hopelessness!" - Fatimah Ali Philadelphia Daily News http://www.philly.com/dailynews/opinion/27755834.html

As to whether or not it is empty rehetoric and scare tactics whose to know. All we can hope for is a very decisive win. Any hint of a scandal or issues surrounding the voting like the dreaded hanging chad issue could very well be expolsive this time.

[Bushcraft]

Evan,

You've just alluded to why I love following the markets (or not) and trading (or not) as much as I do. The parallels with Life are striking, but, unlike Life, trading can be broken down numerically.

There is the potential for gain and loss across the entire spectrum of thousands of securities and derivatives of such...micro to macro. Breaking the investment plays down by quantifiable numbers provides for a means by which to rationally navigate troubled waters. However, having an "internal compass", "gut" or "intuition" (call it what you will, I believe it a combinatorial form of ingrained instinct and learned behavior/intelligence) is absolutely key in one's final decision to buy, sell, sell short, cover a short or hold. As with trading, I believe one can approach life “by the numbers” as well. I believe one’s life is a summation of the decisions and actions one has made based on the risk vs. reward of those decisions and actions. While I’m not so anal-retentive as to walk around actually ascribing mathematical probabilities to my everyday affairs, I do “weigh” the consequences of my present actions with potential outcomes.

Anyway, I’m convinced that a significant segment of the population is utterly complacent, unwilling or unable to consider the intermediate and longer term ramifications of the decisions and actions they take. I also believe that there is a small segment of the population of Liberals/Progressives/Marxists (call the dirty bastards what you will) working feverishly to undermine America, its Creed and Americans. I don't believe that Obama is evil incarnate, but he is most definitely a pawn of the enemy's forces that will accelerate us to the "end of times".

I sincerely hope that the remaining social and fiscal conservatives amongst us that endeavor to adhere to the operational guidance of our founding documents and our Creed (I'll call these true Americans) are growing angry enough to rise up and devote more time and energy to keeping this cancerous Marxist enemy at bay…both within and abroad. We’ll not be able to defeat it entirely, but we need to hammer it whenever and wherever it raises its head…for there is historically definable “by the numbers” consequences for doing nothing to quash it.

[evanhill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I’m not so anal-retentive as to walk around actually ascribing mathematical probabilities to my everyday affairs</div></div>

I'm tempted to ask Christina about this topic /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[Ralph]

Evan, actually your thoughts on the matter are quite close to mine. John Campbell once observed that it pays a prophet to be not too specific and most aren't. I don't read Mayan, so I have to accept what the experts say about their calendar. On the other hand, what the calendar says (according to the experts) is that a change will occur or begin on that specific date. I suspect that will happen, since a change of one type or another begins or occurs on every date. Today is the first day of the rest of your life as the poet says.

As for the others, well ... vagueness is the order of the day, rather like the Nostradamus predictions and that vagueness can be and is interpreted in many ways.

Even the experts in the Bible Code say that while the code may reveal a foreknowledge of events, the code is useless for determining future events.

While the Mayan knowledge of astronomical phenomemon is proven and extensive, I doubt their ability to see into the future is better than our own - which is to say virtually non-existant - and I suspect the sun will set on 21 December 2012 and rise the next day to an earth little changed.

Our planet has endured a lot, and it's still here. We have endured a lot, and we are still here, too. Civilizations rise and fall, there are periods of comfort and periods of travail, but there are always survivors who start again and rebuild what was lost, somewhat different, perhaps, but ultimately somewhat better.

"And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul."

[T&S Manufacturing]

The Bible's armageddon is preceeded by a three developments that would seem to be more than 4 years out. In approximate order, (1) one world gov't, (2) the worldwide population needing "the mark of the beast" in order to "buy and sell", (3) the head of the one world govt declaring himself to be God.

As to (2), a not insignificant number of financial institutions would like to see debit transactions entirely replace cash and check transactions. My claim here can be verified through a little bit of research. Bible says no one can "buy or sell" without the "mark of the beast" upon their "forehead or forearm". It all fits.

As to (1), many believe the world is heading in this direction by design. Who and how it will shake out remains to be seen. However, watch as Germany continues to take the lead in EU affairs; and note it was Germany who led and continues to lead the EU transition from a worldwide economic and trading bloc to a fully vested "nation" replete with it's own "Rapid Reaction Force" and other such forms of "defensive developments". It was Germany who pushed for an EU Constitution a few years back. Clearly then, Germany sees the EU as a vehicle to build a new nation, another reich, with Germany as the undisputed head.

As to (3), Scripture predicts the anti-christ will indeed desecrate the temple in Jerusalum - a brand new temple, plans of which are being considered by Israel authorities for a future build date - by declaring himself to be God. Though some claim this desecration already happened in the OT, and therefore is mentioned by repeat only in the NT, this is not true. Taken within context, the desecration in the NT is an entirely separate affair, taking place after the birth of Christ. Indeed, the references to "locusts" flying in the air with the power to kill men seems to indicate helicoptors. The fire which dries up seas and kills a 3rd of mankind can only be nuclear. And so on. All of these things occur after the anti-christ's desecration of the Jewish temple.

I believe that 1, 2 and 3 will happen. I don't think it'll be in 4 years, though. Maybe 24 years, or maybe 40...but not 4. At least, I don't think.

[Woods Walker]

As for Obama I think maybe the fact of his fast rise may have gone to his head some. Heck it would go to my head. But guessing that maybe limited to the election. But I can't read minds and a few quotes without any real context offers very little help in the regard. As for the anti-Christ and end of world stuff I do remember a passage someplace in the bible that warns against trying to predict this. Something about only God knowing the time etc. So I just roll with that and don’t think much about it.

[Ralph]

WW: Truth is, I don't think much about it it, either. The stuff keeps popping up and it is kind of interesting. However, I look at it as well beyond my pay grade to determine and that, no matter what, there is little or nothing that I can do about it.

I think it sensible and prudent to have a bugout bag, a first aid kit, a fire extinguisher and similar stuff to handle the day to day emergencies, alarms and excursions that happen all the time but preparing for TEOTWAWKI is kind of silly unless you have a LOT of spare time and money and even then most likely your expensive and time-consuming preparations would come to nought anyhow.