View Full Version : Fooling Around !

03-24-2006, 09:20 AM
Hey guys, I was just fooling around last night with my Tailgunner II, trying to see if I could hook up some shoulder straps to it, so it could be carried vertical like a pack. I stripped off the Omni belt, then held it vertical, and noticed the tension lock buckles for the Delta straps were positioned right for a possible shoulder strap set up. I took the shoulder straps off my Scout, and took off the 3-bar slider that they go thru to make an X pattern. Then I attached the individual straps to the top 2 tension locks. The bottom straps on the shoulder straps have a 3-bar slider on one end that connects to the bottom of the Scout bag. I had to take these straps off the shoulder strap padding, and run them thru the bottom tension locks on the TG all the way to the 3-bar slider. Then I reattached them to the padded part of the shoulder straps. Now I've got a Tailgunner II as a mini pack. Keep in mind, this was just to see if it could work, and it does, but there are couple minor things that would have to be modified to make it work better. First off, is when you attach the shoulder straps to the upper part of the TG, you're left with way too much strap. You would want to cut these, or tape them up. Next, on the bottom attachment at the tension lock buckle, the 3-bar slider is annoying, as you can feel it in your back. You would want to cut this off, if you want to carry your TG in this configuration. I guess what I am saying, is that to make this work right, you would need to modify a set of our Accessory Shoulder Straps (28.00), just for using the TG II as a mini pack. I don't know if this is anything you guys might be interested in, but now you know it can be done /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif .


03-24-2006, 09:22 AM

Good info. That would make for a nice E&E too.

PS, is there a way to dock and lock a TG vertically to the front of an Express?

Nathan C
03-24-2006, 09:44 AM
So when is Kifaru going public? Then I can invest in my own purchases /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

03-24-2006, 10:16 AM
"So when is Kifaru going public?"

Never, I hope. However attractive all that money might be, too often this is the kiss of death to family owned and operated specialty companies.

03-24-2006, 10:23 AM
Cool, I think I get it.

With the number of us using E&E packs as day packs there seems to be an interest in a "smaller than scout" day pack type set up.

03-24-2006, 10:36 AM
Aimless, double ditto.......
actually, the scout is just about right size wise IMHO, plus it's got webbing for whatever, but i'm just more of a 'back' pack guy than a waist pack guy... I think there an inherent difference in keeping the volume more low profile that way.

I'm also going down the E&E route.
But since Murphy's law likes to get me, this should only speed up the invention of a Kifaru day pack /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
maybe some day?

03-24-2006, 12:55 PM
Mel, that explains why I couldn't get a hold of you last night!

03-25-2006, 09:44 PM
You need to get out more man!!


03-26-2006, 06:04 PM
I was actually thinking about the same thing
a few days ago.

I was trying to visualize if flipping the PALS
and elastic loops 90 degrees would make it more
or less useful (to me), and maybe redrawing the inside zip-pockets with a 90 degree change also.

The outside zipper would remain as is.

The option of accommodating a possible second
panel insert also crossed my mind.

I got the idea somewhat from seeing the vertical
“book page” interior setup of blackhawk’s M-7
medpack, and from my LongPocket-Hybrid that I
use as my latest favorite ‘little EDC backback.’*

I really like the TG2 design, but using it
horizontally would not work for me.

I was planning on drawing up some sketches in a
few weeks and if I liked them enough,
I’d send them off to Janice to see if something
could be made for me.

*( I have a hybrid-long-pocket that I ordered with
delta-buckles and a grab-loop on top,
scout-like shoulder straps,
and square loops on the bottom tabs for the shoulder straps.

Its my new favorite EDC, especially being paranoid
of leaving stuff in my parked car here in NYC.
Because the result is a somewhat tiny pack,
I constantly have my girlfriend re-assure me
that it doesn’t look like one of those mini-backpacks
popular with girls.)

03-27-2006, 02:22 AM

It seems like there's gonna have to be a NYC Kifaru Junky meet up one of these days...

I'd like to see that S64, got pix?

Usual wierd q? from me... Can a Back Pouch or E&E comfortably fit on the sides of a Navigator? TIA.

03-27-2006, 04:04 PM

Hey Murph, a NYC get together doesn't sound bad! I think there's maybe 4 or 5 of us around here.

If we can get a couple of other guys interested, we could meet in Central Park on a Sunday for a few hours and then 'hike' to a nearby Pub for a farewell toast /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

supersix - I modified my long pocket as well. I'd like to see yours.

Dave R.
03-27-2006, 04:22 PM
Wow....pitch a tipi in Central Park!! take photos...big fun!!


03-27-2006, 05:53 PM
if someone decides on a meeting location
in central park, some LAT/LONG numbers
would be greatly appreciated.
not that /I'VE/ ever gotten a little
lost in those winding paths, but
just in case anyone from out of the
5-borough vicinity might want to
join in.

a plan-B location might be nice if
the weather is crap,
i.e. Sony atrium, pier-17, or any
plaza with tables, chairs & roof.
(just my $0.02)

Murphquake, BrooklynBen,

i'm a bit tied up right now but
i hope to have those pics up in
less than a week.


Olive Drab
03-27-2006, 07:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by murphquake:

It seems like there's gonna have to be a NYC Kifaru Junky meet up one of these days...

I'd like to see that S64, got pix?

Usual wierd q? from me... Can a Back Pouch or E&amp;E comfortably fit on the sides of a Navigator? TIA.
-bill </div></div>Ruck around Central Park?

03-28-2006, 03:31 AM
Forget CP... though I drive through it the wrong way all over the place at night to get up/down and cross town (fun having an ambulance... just keep your general bearings and get a visual on the streets when you can see them to keep it straight.)

Hmm, OD, another one I see.

Sundays aren't too bad for me, I work thurs-fri-sat 6-6 nights so i'm usually done by 6am sunday for the week.. I gotta wonder if there'd be an increase in traffic in the park on a weekend though... I'm very anxiously awaiting the release of the JetBoil Group cooker sys. (well, just the pot) which would be a nice way to make a moderately big meal for us all to share prior to boozing... (i've perfected the lipton rice/pasta sides and instant mashed via jetboil cup... anyone else have one? we'll get all fancy with the thing) Mind you my current kifaru inventory is currently the instructions to my old marauder, a notepad or two and maybe I have a hat somewhere... wow that's weak... just ordered a new marauder an E&amp;E and some other junk (yay tax return!) but i'm figuring not til may for that...

Let's start hashing something out... then trick Mel and Patrick into flying out to bring us all presents (I've always though Mel would make an unorthodox but good Santa!)

03-29-2006, 07:09 AM
Hey Murph, a Backpouch or E&amp;E won't fit comfortably on the sides of a Navigator, as they are just a little too wide. Technically, it could be done, but it's just not practical.


03-29-2006, 09:45 AM
10-4 big buddy! I'm still dreaming of a panel loader with an E&amp;E on one side and a CLS level aidbag E&amp;E on the other... suppose the TT FRB I just got on the roof of the Marauder &amp; E&amp;E will have to do for now.

03-29-2006, 11:44 AM
Murphquake, BrooklynBen,

Some pics of my custom H-LP:

Flashlight Pic:
Hybrid Long Pocket, extra PALS on front &amp; sides.
Extra tacking on D&amp;L straps to make PALS
on the front visually uniform.
Angled Delta buckles &amp; grab loop installed on top,
bottom D&amp;L tab angled up &amp; with square ring.
Bits of black paracord seared about front pals loops
to tidy up the D&amp;L straps.

Butterfly Pic:
Simple straps attatch scout-style.
I fed the long ends of the shoulder straps loosely
through the rear pals instead of cutting them.

Radio Pic:
D&amp;L straps nice &amp; neat for EDC.
Coyote brown interior liner so I can see whats inside.
Chamber pocket holder loops inside top-back.


Marauder Pic:
D&amp;L on a Marauder with a diamondback
admin pouch on the LP.
I don't D&amp;L it that often but I like the option.


03-29-2006, 11:55 AM
supersixfour, nice pics! So you made a long pocket into a EE? Did you sew it your self?

03-29-2006, 04:44 PM
I visualized it, I drew it on paper, I cut &amp; melted those little snips of paracord
that keep the D&amp;L straps neat &amp; sweet, but no, I did not sew.

I was smart enough to send my sketches to Janice and the talented
crew at Kifaru.
They were so nice and brought my sketches to life.

Many thanks to them.

I have an E&amp;E and like it but lately I prefer using this little thing as
an EDC bag.

03-29-2006, 10:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by supersixfour:
Some pics of my custom H-LP:</div></div>Very, very nice.

I don't see any good reason to not add PALS to all the military pockets.

03-30-2006, 05:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by supersixfour:

I constantly have my girlfriend re-assure me
that it doesn’t look like one of those mini-backpacks
popular with girls.) </div></div>Thats funny because I had the same thought about the Scout. I'm going to use it as my EDC and I didnt want it looking like one of those little backpacks that girls wear in their lumbar area. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

04-12-2006, 12:38 PM
Perhaps it's time for me to update my "CLS E&amp;E" concept to include the "CLS HLP" concept... you can D&amp;L this thing to the side of the Marauder, right? how about a conventional side opening LP, but with PALS Coverage just like what you've had added, and the same strap and suspension setup, hook up the inside to allow a page fold system like the BHI M7 aidbag or the modernized Eagle CONTOMS M5 setups with whatever is clever (probably just a set of common loops at the fold on the side)and then add pals up and down the inside of the pouch. It would be a lot like the Bergen Medic Sidepouch that our buddy Keld first showed off about 4 years back... stands upright then opens up to one side. basically a TG2 setup with less jazz and the PALS turned 90 degrees to allow it to ride appropriately on the side of a pack. A marauder with a pair of these, one for E&amp;E/sustainment and one for CLS level medkit would be a shibby-sweet setup. I officially hate S64 for thinking of this before me! He better dummy cord this whole thing to himself or I'll steal it when he's not looking ;-P (the things we'll do for nylon =-D JK, but I can't wait to fondle it.

04-12-2006, 06:15 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">murphquake wrote:
...I officially hate S64 for thinking of this before me! He better dummy cord this whole thing to himself or I'll steal it when he's not looking...I can't wait to fondle it.</div></div>Sure, go ahead and make us NY'ers look like
a bunch of angry perverts.
All I can say is you will be no match for
my dummy cording skills - just ask
my flashlight in the picture.

if that nyc kifaru junkie meet ever goes down,
I'll show you some of my ideas
I've translated on to cad prints.

04-13-2006, 09:42 AM
SS4, that custom H-LP is super-sweet!

04-13-2006, 10:57 AM
does that mean i need to get out the colored pens and grap paper again? CAD prints seem over kill for something you're sending to people working with sewing machines...so i just MS Paint drew up the CLS HVLP... need to host it to show off... will email if interested... somewhere on my broken laptop is the old pic of the CLS E&amp;E concept that became the thing that should not be.
-bill that's angry theiving pervert to you

04-13-2006, 11:09 AM
Cass, no posting while I'm busy in MS Paint! wanna host a really lame pic?

S64 as for your dummycording all I see is some boyscout style lanyard wraping crap... it's not even Chinese Staircase or Cobra... what a mook! The flashlight looks like it has a wrist loop but isn't tied to anything AFAI can tell. And the flashlight upside down on the side of the marauder in the pouch in the other pic doesn't appear to even be touching a piece of cord. Don't mess with Queens foo!
-bill very badly wants your black cordura

04-13-2006, 01:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by murphquake:
wanna host a really lame pic?
</div></div>sign up with photobucket - that's what i use for hosting forum pics. it's free!

04-13-2006, 04:09 PM
The cad IS overkill but I did it for a living in a past life so its very easy and second nature for me to use it for pouch sketches.

as for the dummy cording, I'll trade you cad
lessons for cord weaving lessons.

04-13-2006, 04:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by militarymoron:
SS4, that custom H-LP is super-sweet! </div></div>thanks.
i bought my first e&amp;e because of you.

You just need to put a warning on your
site about the addictive potential of
kifaru -its worse than crack.

04-14-2006, 11:16 AM
They all want some-a-dat crickety crackety CRACK! EVERYBODY LOVES CRACK! It's a matter of fact!

Ok, you're right el photacular one... photobucket may now spam me at will...

Here goes nuttin:

CLS Hybrid Vertical Long Pocket:


Now for the old school... the CLS E&amp;E concept in two parts.... looks strangely familiar...



Finally, a concept pocket for something a little bigger than most upright GPs... this is how I work, though this would be when I didn't have time to transfer to graph paper and draw to scale.


Hopefully all these worked.

04-14-2006, 11:37 AM
Hey Murph, cool drawings! A helluva lot better than my sketchy stick figure drawings. I see where you must have been tired when you did the CLS Hybrid drawings. You're slippin' bro, where is the PALS webbing on the top and bottom of the pocket /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif !!


04-14-2006, 12:06 PM
Avast me hearty. Ye olde brigadoon finds not nearly enough of the PALS webbing on my pack concept, I refer you to TTTSNB, I'll give a ring... you should see my stuff on paper, I get jiggy with the detail 'N' shizz. Honestly the pals on top of the marauder for small pouches like Whoshe Whatshisname did I like a lot, but for a small bag like this it's too much, even for me. The E&amp;E was actually me cutting and pasting over and over and rotating and flipping and such with the pix of the actual E&amp;E from the website... basically you're a band and I'm the rapper sampling your music ;-) Haircut, shower and off to work... CYA!

04-14-2006, 06:52 PM
you've got some good ideas.

I like some of the ideas on your CLS-H-V-L-P
enough to want to 'borrow' them.

These two pics are a first draft of my vertical TG2.
sketched last week so I could look at it and
start thinking about what really did/didn't want.
Some of the detail was lost in conversion here
but you get the idea.

I wanted to accomodate more than one
panel insert into this V-TG2, but as you can
see I only thought of adding a few more
plastic square loops on to elongated inside spine straps.

I like better your idea of a set of delta web
tiedown points on EACH side of the interior
for 2 panel inserts. I would just add a plastic
square loop on each delta and they'd be good to go.

Your 4 Delta web anchor points on the back would eliminate
the 2 lower (angled-up) anchor points on the back of
my design. Less clutter for me.
Nice idea, thanks.

I like the horizontal symmetry you incorporated.
Useful for mounting one on both sides
of a pack with practical access .
I'm thinking an e&amp;e slot pocket on the outside
back of my design so I probably won't pilfer that particular
idea, but its a good one.

I don't want permanent D&amp;L straps on this thing,
but with the infestation of tab loops w/ square rings here,
two 30" pieces of webbing and 4 sets of D&amp;L buckles
would take care of any D&amp;L needs for me.

The inside front is the same.
The inside rear has the pals turned 90 with no slot pockets,
chamber pocket hangs from top.
No inside suspenders.
Outside front pals turned 90, less one line from the top.
Outside rear a-la E&amp;E.
All those hanging tabs w/ square loops on the outside
would come in handy for cinch-straps, D&amp;L straps,
or whatever other idea came to mind.

Thanks for helping me tidy up my mutant, Murph.



04-15-2006, 05:19 AM
Wow! That's hot... I really like the way that looks... cool stuff... I feel so inadequate what with my MSPaint and graph paper notebooks and colored pens and pencils ;-) Looks to me like the back of an E&amp;E with the front &amp; guts of a TG2 but turned sideways PALS... pretty cool, and definitely looks nice.

I didn't include any slot pockets in the CLSHVLP idea simply because it's designed to end up facing one way or the other, so you'd have half of the people's stuff falling out... you could put a tunnel in the either panel with double zipper access, which would be good for SAM Splints and such, might have to add that to the concept.... ok done... would have 2 zippers, one at either end of the back of the pocket, with the entire back panel and interior panel forming a flat pocket. both zippers would be aligned so they'd open towards the "spine of the book" so to speak, where the pocket hinges open, such that all zippers will open towards one spot. In use you could probably tie the zipper pull for the lower opening to the first bar of pals webbing on the side to keep it closed, and do the same with the top one to keep it open if you like, or keep them both open or closed. Here's the pic:


Now for comments on your design. First, I'd simplify the top of the pocket with just webbing loop tabs into which any slotted buckle or a GrimLoc could be placed. If you need ladder lock type buckles then you can just slip them in, if you want to sling the pouch then attach a sling... The only reason I left the common loops on the 4 outside delta tabs in my design is to accomodate the metal 3-bar of the shoulder straps. You could just as easily use a D&amp;L buckle or a GrimLoc or a SlikClip at the end of the shoulder straps and ditch the common loops all together. Same thing with the D&amp;L straps. You could just put plain pals there and anchor removeable D&amp;L straps onto it with SlikClips. This would let you run with the pouch "clean" on a pack or as a slung bag with nothing but the zippers to fumble with or just D&amp;L straps on the zipper side of the bag to secure the flap... next pic:


As for the two mini-daisy-chains you did on the interior spine with the common loops on them, SlikClips have made the need for the common loops unnecessary, pretty much any panel you can think of having made can be attached to those points. I ended up deciding on the delta webbing so that you could attach a few small flat panels (think TSSI Eagle CONTOMS M5 and BHI M7 aid bags) and they'd also have a little webbing to fold over on to get them out of the way. I put them on both sides so you could totally customize your setup, or have a few folding layers... I could see something like this being very useful for any sort of technician's case, be it medical, electronic, eod etc... have a bunch of removeable/rearrangeable panels with tools and parts in a zippered case... the interior pals provides extra storage, you could just fill the pocket like that and not even use the pocket to hold loose items, just 2 or 3 panels on each side that you can flip out of the way to get to what you need. I considered just a pair of straps on either side wall or even full on PALS, but that would have been overkill, I think the delta straps will work well, and can be used as lashing/tiedown points for other stuff, or you could run cord, wire or tubing through them and around the perimeter of the pocket.

>Thanks for helping me tidy up my mutant, Murph.

Talk about a wrong-sounding sentence. Hmm. =-O

P.S. if you're going to add an E&amp;E style slot pocket why wouldn't you just go with standard E&amp;E shoulder straps on your TG2 design? Do you just prefer the scout style ones?

04-15-2006, 06:53 AM
Those drawings were done BEFORE
I saw yours. In that big pile of
text I included with the drawings
are explanations of changes that
I will draw up based on ideas I
got from your sketches.

04-15-2006, 07:01 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by murphquake:
...I ended up deciding on the delta webbing so that you could attach a few small flat panels (think TSSI Eagle CONTOMS M5... </div></div>got more info on that stuff?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
P.S. if you're going to add an E&amp;E style slot pocket why wouldn't you just go with standard E&amp;E shoulder straps on your TG2 design? Do you just prefer the scout style ones? </div></div>I like removable.

04-16-2006, 11:35 AM
It's all good, I'm still stealing your HLP... you'll never see it cause it's Ninja Black and therefore invisible in all climates and conditions. I'm surprised you were even able to get those pictures in the first place ;-) The M5 was the old standard fullsize .mil aidbag, it was a large rectangular canvas pack with a pretty plain internal layout and two side slot pockets... when .gov started the CONTOMS tactical medic program (COunter Narcotics Tactical Operational Medical Support) the principals redesigned the bag and had them contracted out to Tactical Survival Specialties Inc (TSSI, http://www.tacsurv.com/ ) who had Eagle make them (still do http://www.eagleindustries.com/ ). They have a similar layout of removable pages which velcro into the opening at the spine of the bag... I believe the bag comes with like 3 of them in various configurations. Supposedly TSSI has added PALS to the design recently, but I haven't seen any pix yet. They also have Eagle making their M4 aidbag which is large waistpack style bag, as well as selling Eagle's M3 CLS/Unit 1 aidbags (the trifold shoulder bags for medics and CLS-ers).