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Apple
08-01-2007, 11:27 AM
Why the solid stays over a framesheet?

Mel
08-01-2007, 12:52 PM
Apple, an HDPE framesheet does not offer enough support for heavy loads, or even moderately heavy loads. It will give the pack some shape, and help keep hard items from poking you, but not much more. You need solid stays in a pack's suspension if you want to carry heavier loads in comfort.

Mel

Apple
08-01-2007, 02:51 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Apple, an HDPE framesheet does not offer enough support for heavy loads, or even moderately heavy loads. It will give the pack some shape, and help keep hard items from poking you, but not much more. You need solid stays in a pack's suspension if you want to carry heavier loads in comfort.

Mel </div></div>

I was thinking the same thing. If Kelty uses it its probably import level of quality (low)

For some reason TadGear is using it in their gen 3 fastpack. I'm now questioning ordering a fastpack. But its not like I need it with my trusty X-Ray!

militarymoron
08-02-2007, 05:45 PM
apple, i think it would be a mistake to use the fact that a pack uses a HDPE framesheet (or none) as criteria for quality.
whether a manufacturer decides to go with a frame system or framesheet depends on many factors - intended use, load, price point, etc. none of eagle industries' medium packs have frame systems - they don't even come standard with framesheets (you purchase them separately). low quality imports? not.

Apple
08-02-2007, 07:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: militarymoron</div><div class="ubbcode-body">apple, i think it would be a mistake to use the fact that a pack uses a HDPE framesheet (or none) as criteria for quality.
whether a manufacturer decides to go with a frame system or framesheet depends on many factors - intended use, load, price point, etc. none of eagle industries' medium packs have frame systems - they don't even come standard with framesheets (you purchase them separately). low quality imports? not. </div></div>

The fact still remains that the stays are better.

A pack like the X-Ray or the fastpack gen 3 (very similar to the X-Ray) needs more than a framesheet IMO. How much weight can a framesheet take? One about the size required for a X-Ray or Fastpack gen3?

duckhunter
08-03-2007, 02:34 AM
Most pack framesheets have one or two stays attached to them(I don't know if the Eagle framesheet does). My point is that "framesheet" does not mean "no stays".

militarymoron
08-03-2007, 07:30 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">=AppleThe fact still remains that the stays are better.
</div></div>
that's not fact, that's your personal opinion based on your own needs. some people might not want stays because they may not be able to wear a waistbelt due to equipment conflicts, or just not need them for the load carried, if it's light enough.

that still has nothing to do with judging the QUALITY of a pack, which is what you were doing. you were equating the lack of stays to low manufacturing quality, and that is just not the case.

Apple
08-03-2007, 10:14 AM
How could stays not let you wear a waist belt? How much dose the framesheet weigh? How much weight can they take? You have to have zippers and such if their removable right?

Dose Kifaru use them in any of their packs?

militarymoron
08-03-2007, 12:31 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Apple</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How could stays not let you wear a waist belt?</div></div>
i don't know - how'd you come up with that idea?

Apple
08-03-2007, 12:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: militarymoron</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">=AppleThe fact still remains that the stays are better.
</div></div>
some people might not want stays because they may not be able to wear a waistbelt due to equipment conflicts, or just not need them for the load carried </div></div>

militarymoron
08-03-2007, 12:43 PM
that sentence doesn't say anything about stays not letting you wear a waist belt. this is what the sentence means:
1. equipment conflict - armour, battle belt, etc, prevents wearing of a waistbelt.
2. can't wear a waistbelt - nullifies the need for stays, since stays depend on the usage of a waistbelt to offload the weight onto the hips.
therefore, some people might not want or need stays in their pack.
i'll repeat this again:
the presence of stays in a pack are not a measure of quality and should not be the ONLY criteria for deciding whether a pack will suit your specific purposes.

Apple
08-03-2007, 01:12 PM
How do stays offload weight to the hips? How can HDPE do this differently?

militarymoron
08-03-2007, 01:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Apple</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do stays offload weight to the hips? </div></div>
if you're not sure of the answer to this question, why are stays a criteria for your pack selection?

Apple
08-03-2007, 02:07 PM
I dont want anything poking my back and I want the back to stay even. not buldge depending on loadout.

militarymoron
08-03-2007, 02:32 PM
apple, check out this page which explains some backpack selection basics, i think it will help with some of the terms and reasons for certain features:
selecting a pack (REI) (http://www.rei.com/online/store/LearnShareDetailArticlesList?categoryId=Camping&url=rei/learn/camp/rghbkpk3f.jsp&vcat=REI_EXPERT_ADVICE_CAMPING)

jeriah
08-08-2007, 01:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: militarymoron</div><div class="ubbcode-body">apple, check out this page which explains some backpack selection basics, i think it will help with some of the terms and reasons for certain features:
selecting a pack (REI) (http://www.rei.com/online/store/LearnShareDetailArticlesList?categoryId=Camping&url=rei/learn/camp/rghbkpk3f.jsp&vcat=REI_EXPERT_ADVICE_CAMPING) </div></div>

I checked out that link, and the only thing I could find that seemed relevant was this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Support (stays or framesheet): Typically, one or two aluminum stays are used to transfer the weight of the load to your hipbelt. Stays are typically a rod or bar, though some now feature a tubular design to reduce weight. Other packs use a stiff plastic HDPE (high-density polyethylene) framesheet for load support. This thin sheet helps prevent objects in your pack from poking you in the back. A number of packs now offer a stay/framesheet combo.
</div></div>

Other than the anti-poking feature of the framesheet, it didn't really explain much.

I use a Zulu, with wasitbelt; in the past I have used both a medium ALICE (no frame) and a large ALICE (with aluminum frame, obviously). The Zulu, as you know, has aluminum stays; it works great for transferring weight to the hips.

I don't exactly know what a framesheet is (is that like what the EMR has?) nor why it would be less effective for transferring weight to the waist.

Apple
08-08-2007, 04:45 PM
a framesheet is like a sheet of plastic in side the backing of the pack that helps give it a frame and so things dont buldge.

The only way I can see stays taking weight off of the shoulder is that the stays keep the packs back straight so when you have a waistbelt (that isnt conected to the stays) it will take weight off the shoulders?

Mel
08-08-2007, 06:32 PM
Hey guys, I figured I would jump in here with some explanations. A plastic framesheet on it's own, does not give enough support for heavy loads, even with a waistbelt. For heavy loads, you need a more rigid frame setup, like you get with the aluminum stays. Check out the last 2 pics in the link below, which shows the Omni-Yoke with the stays in (OY12), and with only a plastic framesheet (OY13). With the stays in, the Omni-Yoke is very rigid, and with just the plastic framesheet, it is really flexible. That flexibility becomes a liability when trying to support heavy loads, and transfer that weight to the waistbelt. Here's the link with the pics:

http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i240/melt_photos/OY/

Mel

Apple
08-08-2007, 08:39 PM
So the more rigid the support (like stays) the more weight can be placed on the waist belt? Even when the belt isnt connected to the stays?

jeriah
08-12-2007, 05:54 PM
Would it be fair to say, then, that while the Zulu and its kin have stays only, the EMR and MMR have stays AND a framesheet?

And that Kifaru does not make packs that are framesheet-only, due to their inability to handle heavy loads?

Patrick
08-13-2007, 10:07 AM
jeriah, you are correct.