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View Full Version : Coyote packs and different color webbing



r390guy
09-21-2005, 11:23 PM
The Kifaru packs I own have the light colored tan webbing as shown below on the Zulu. Is it possible to get the darker colored webbing as shown on the MMR? If so what are these two colors called?

http://www.r390files.com/images/kifaru.gif

copper
09-22-2005, 05:50 AM
I think they are somewhat at the mercy of their suppliers as to variations in runs of fabric.

Nathan C
09-22-2005, 06:34 AM
I just ordered an EMR and Zulu yesterday and asked the same thing. They said the about the same lines as copper, but they also have a new supplier that is much better and should match well.

Nathan

Gizzmo
09-22-2005, 06:57 AM
It's hard to tell in that photo. Could the MMR be OD? Maybe that's the differance. Hopefully my EMR will ship to me this week. It would be nice to have the webbing close to the pack body color. I ordered it in CB.

DNW
09-22-2005, 07:01 AM
Both My Tailgunner I and Zulu have the darker webbing...

eggroll
09-22-2005, 07:36 AM
it is solely THAT, Kifaru was subject to the dying processes of their suppliers. At one time their coyote webbing was a couple shades off of PINK!

I've bought several rolls of 1" coyote webbing (from kifaru, just to maintain commonality with my gear), and each batch was a different shade.

that MMR is COYOTE

inFALable
09-22-2005, 01:51 PM
The Zulu I got last week has perfectly matching webbing and buckles. BTW, it only took 14 days to get to me.

Dave
09-23-2005, 08:22 AM
Hey inFALable,

Don't tell everyone you know that /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Dave

Lone Piper
09-23-2005, 04:56 PM
Waited a month for my MC Marauder...black buckles and hardware...bummer. Oh, no Kif sticker either! Hello!

09-23-2005, 05:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Lone Piper:
Waited a month for my MC Marauder...black buckles and hardware...bummer. Oh, no Kif sticker either! Hello! </div></div>I have to agree. Really don't understand why Kifaru don't offer coloured buckles. I would have paid a bit more for that. Black sucks on MC imo.

Res.

inFALable
09-23-2005, 06:13 PM
Dave,

I won't tell you how many stickers I got then. I still can't believe I have my Zulu.

Nathan C
09-23-2005, 07:16 PM
They'll do color buckles if you ask for them. Don't think it's any extra either. I got tan on all mine, even the OD. I figure with MC pockets it'll be alright.

09-24-2005, 02:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nathan Cragg:
They'll do color buckles if you ask for them. Don't think it's any extra either. I got tan on all mine, even the OD. I figure with MC pockets it'll be alright. </div></div>They really should advertise this then. Definitely would have taken this option if I had been aware. Did you have to supply them with the buckles or did they take care if it?
Thanks.

Res.

Nathan C
09-24-2005, 11:35 AM
No I ask Mel about the color matching and the new Ghillie-tex buckles. What it is, is that they're using the tan ghillie-tex for all the tan/brown buckles. I read somewhere on here that they wouldn't be using the green ones until they starting making the ACU pattern, which is still a couple months out. So from my understanding is they are going to the ghillie-tex buckles, but right now it's only in the tan/brown. I was looking more for the IR signature than anything, so Mel just said to make sure and request tan buckles.

Nathan

Mel
09-24-2005, 06:23 PM
OK guys, there seems to be a lot of confusion here, so I will try and explain the situation. Going back to the begining, at around the first of the year, we made a decision to switch to the new ITW GhillieTex buckles and hardware after several demonstrations and testing. Problem was that we used some hardware that wasn't available in the GhillieTex line, such as the triangles and quick attach slotted buckles. ITW said they would tool up to make these parts for us, so that took some time to accomplish. During this timeframe, we decided to get our metal hardware done up for us in IR Tan. We wanted to stay with the quick eject buckles we have been using for the shoulder straps, but they weren't available at all from ITW, so we had the manufacturer of these buckles do a special run in IR Tan for us. We wanted to wait until we had ALL of our hardware in IR Tan, before going forward with the change. All this took quite a bit of time as you can imagine, but we're finally there.

Now, to let you know how it works, as far as implementing this type of in line change from a manufacturer's standpoint. While waiting for all the new hardware to actually get in house, packs and accessories were still in production. When all the hardware was finally in house, it was then implemented into the line. Because production had been continuous, there would be packs and accessories still in the system with the black hardware. For instance, if there were 50 CB Scouts that had been cut out, sewn, and assembled with the black hardware just before we got the tan hardware, then these would already be in the system. Let's say 40 of them went out as orders, and that would still leave 10 in stock with the black hardware. Now with all the different packs in production, there might not be any more Scouts cut out for awhile, and any new Scout order would be filled with one of those we had in stock, which would still have black hardware. Let's say we didn't have any MC EMR's in the system when we finally got all of our tan hardware. Well, that would mean that any MC EMR's that were then ordered, would have the new tan hardware. So, I hope you can understand that there will be some gear still in the system with the black hardware, before the transition is complete. This is not uncommon for manufacturers, as a case in point would be Eagle, when they came out early this year with the new MOLLE A-III. The first ones had black hardware, and then they started arriving with tan hardware. There was no announcement by Eagle in the color change for the hardware, it was just implemented into the line. There were guys back then that were posting pics of their new A-III's with the tan hardware, and guys were wondering why their new A-III's still had black hardware (see above for explanation /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif ). Go to the Lightfighter Tactical Forum and do a search for Eagle MOLLE A-III, and you will find this info.

The smaller one man custom shops can change colors and/or design at the drop of a hat, as quick as the very next pocket or piece of gear that they are building. The larger manufacturers don't have that luxury. Before any in line changes are executed, they must be well planned out at all stages of production. During this planning, production must be continuous, which can lead to situations like we're discussing here, concerning the change in the color of the hardware.

We are using the IR Tan hardware for all gear in CB, OD, and MC. Sometime next year, we will be offering gear in ACU, and when that happens, it will have Foilage Green webbing and hardware. I hope this helped explain the whole buckle/hardware situation a little better.

Mel

gronk
09-25-2005, 05:11 AM
At risk of being a pain in the proverbial, has the possibility of having tan buckles in the "Kifaru Repair Kit" been looked at, or even allowing them to be bought individually to retrofit packs?
Cheers, G

Lone Piper
09-25-2005, 05:50 AM
Gronk: I bought a batch from supplycaptain.com and they work great. I simply cut off the old black buckles and replaced them with tan or OD depending on my Kif color.

Did anyone else pick up on that though...a Kifaru ACU Pack!!!! Starting to save TIME NOW!!

pinepig5
09-25-2005, 09:52 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by eggroll:
it is solely THAT, Kifaru was subject to the dying processes of their suppliers. At one time their coyote webbing was a couple shades off of PINK!

I've bought several rolls of 1" coyote webbing (from kifaru, just to maintain commonality with my gear), and each batch was a different shade.

that MMR is COYOTE </div></div>I saw a pic of a multicam Kifaru pack with pinkish webbing, and I was really disappointed that Kifaru would do that, as much as I like Kifaru. Either return webbing to supplier or write it off, but don't bring down the image. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif $.02

Maybe it's tough to find the right stuff and people don't mind if it get's them stuff sooner?

RalstonS
09-25-2005, 01:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Did anyone else pick up on that though...a Kifaru ACU Pack!!!! Starting to save TIME NOW!!</div></div>I caught that, and I can hardly wait!

Lone Piper
09-27-2005, 06:29 AM
About the "pink" webbing...alot of the earlier Army DCUs (desert uniforms) had a pinkish "hue" to them. Didn't like it and glad my Marauder didn't have pinkish hue webbing either!

Gizzmo
09-28-2005, 05:16 AM
I just had my new EMR come in 9/27. It looks great. Webbing is almost a true match to the body color. Complete with tan buckles and matching hardware.

r390guy
10-04-2005, 09:07 PM
Question for Mel.

In another post TheButcher posted this picture of a recent production CB EMR. The webbing on this EMR looks more tan than brown. If I order a CB pack can I specify the darker brown webbing (shown on the MMR in the picture at the head of this thread) and not the lighter tan webbing shown here?

http://www.r390files.com/images/kifaruemr.gif

Mel
10-04-2005, 11:04 PM
r390, being out here on the West coast, I never know exactly what shades or color matches are coming out of the shop at any given time. There is a constant re-ordering of materials from the suppliers, where the shades may vary. The person to contact would be Janice at the shop (800-222-6139) to find out about the current color and shade combinations, and to make any requests.

Mel

Dade
10-09-2005, 09:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Mel:
We are using the IR Tan hardware for all gear in CB, OD, and MC. Sometime next year, we will be offering gear in ACU, and when that happens, it will have Foilage Green webbing and hardware. I hope this helped explain the whole buckle/hardware situation a little better.

Mel </div></div>So basically, what you're saying, is that I shouldn't order my OD packs until sometime next year if I want to have the matching hardware.

Mel
10-09-2005, 10:37 PM
Dade, all the new OD gear will have the IR tan hardware. The contrast looks really good. It is not a "match" to OD, but neither is Foilage Green.

Mel

SIGS52
10-10-2005, 11:39 AM
I'm a firm believer in contrasting earth tones buckles and 550 zipper pulls. In normal conditions and reduced vis environment it's easier to ID buckles and pulls.

Additionally when a pack is lined with lighter colored earth tone it's easier to see the contents of the pack.

GearGuy8654
10-10-2005, 11:48 AM
I am with SIGS52 on this one, earth tones are far better for use on all gear.

I dont understand why everyone is so inundated with having each and every part on their gear match. It is just flat out ridiculous. Do you think the warfighter cares if all of his/ her gear matches; no, all they want is for it to work as advertised and fulfill the role for which it is being used. He/she has to worry about so many other things besides the fact that all his/her gear matches. Combat is not about making a fashion statement; I guess if you are a collector and not an end user you wouldn't know the difference.

Secondly, foliage green hardware is not anywhere near OD and pretty much only works with the Army Universal Camo Pattern (ACU) fabric and Foliage Green webbing. It is a shade like no other and until you actually see it or hold it you will not understand.

eggroll
10-10-2005, 01:33 PM
How else can we be so metrotactical /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif If we can't match more to come

GearGuy8654
10-10-2005, 02:22 PM
Just to add to my previous post, a variance in color adds to the depth of the pattern. IE tan buckles on OD fabric. It changes the total dimension of the colors by changing the pattern up ever so slightly, in effect, it aids in changing up the appearance of the object. Thus creating its own camouflage pattern.

Metrotactical huh, I guess you have truly never used any of the gear you buy, trade for or make for its intended purpose other than to play dress up or say that you have had a chance to fondle the latest and greatest gadget. Here's a new one, how about geardo***ual: men who hang out with other men and play dress up with gear that they will never use for real.

Out!!!

Hanzo
10-10-2005, 02:38 PM
Wow, that heated up in a hurry.

OK, two things in this guy's defense...

First, you don't know his AO. If it happens to be ALL green or ALL tan, a contrasting color is a huge target indicator, same reason you don't wear blaze orange into combat. Not to the same extreme, but you choose colors for a reason.

Second, when you pay several hundred dollars for something, I don't think it's too much to ask that you get what you want.

GearGuy8654
10-10-2005, 02:47 PM
Agreed Hanzo, but just as some have said, a lot of manufacturers are at the mercy of their respective suppliers and unless you are buying solution dyed webbing, you will never get a consistent color throughout every dye lot.

Before anyone asks or questions me, I buy and research gear for my unit and have done a lot of research on this stuff.

HTH

imported_airsupport
10-10-2005, 03:11 PM
Maybe it is just me but all this talk of matching buckles is flat out ridiculous. It is a nice to have but not a necessary to your average Soldier, Sailor, Airmen or Marine. Does it really matter if your buckles are black....really. How many of us are actually engaged with an enemy that uses Night Vision? I am sure that those who are will not need to respond as they know what they need regardless of what is fashionable in the gear world at the time.

Now all of that being said, Hanzo is right, if you are going to shell out the big bucks, you should get what you ask for.

Mel
10-10-2005, 04:23 PM
Unfortunately, the phrase "if you are going to shell out the big bucks, you should get what you ask for", has a limit from a manufacturing standpoint. The small one-man custom shops will buy their materials in small quantities, thus enabling them to offer a much wider selection of fabric, webbing, velcro, and hardware in many different colors. When you're paying to have something custom built, then you should definately get what you ask for.

When it comes to manufacturers of gear, things take a different turn. Everything has to be ordered and stocked in bulk quantities. Fabric and webbing is bought by the hundreds to thousands of yards at a time. Multiply this by the different colors of fabric and webbing, and then all the different widths of webbing. Same with all the hardware, where they have to order thousands of each individual piece of hardware. And this is not all of the materials, you still have thread, binding tape, velcro, elastic, all the different types of mesh, zippers, 550 cord, cordlocks, and the list goes on. Now, multiply all that again by all the colors and sizes needed in quantity. To manufacture all the products, all these materials must be ordered in all these quantities, be recieved at the shop, and then it all must be stocked into inventory. As you can see, we haven't even begun the actual manufacturing process yet, and all the steps that entails when you have to build products in quantity. So, a manufacturer has to make decisions on what type of materials to use, colors being one of them, based on what they believe most of the end users will be happy with. As the old saying goes "You can't please everyone all the time, so you try to please most of them, most of the time". To address the topic of discussion here, we have decided to use the ITW GhillieTex IR Tan hardware for all of our OD, CB, and MC gear for a couple of reasons. One is that the GhillieTex hardware is not available in OD, just Tan or Foilage Green, and the Foilage Green was designed solely for use with ACU, and not a good match with OD. Another reason, is that using one color across the board, is easier from a manufacturing standpoint. We could find green hardware from another manufacturer to use just with our OD gear, but we feel it's not really necessary, especially considering the cost of adding another color where we would have to order thousands of each piece of hardware. A case in point when it comes to manufacturers, is Eagle Industries, who is using IR Tan GhillieTex hardware on all their Ranger Green and OD gear.

So, I hope this helped explain some of the complexities of being a manufactuer, versus a small custom shop.

Mel

Hanzo
10-10-2005, 04:49 PM
By the way, I just wanted to point out that when I said that when spending several hundred dollars, you should get what you want, I in now way meant anything negative towards Kifaru. The comments I was hearing just seemed to have the feeling of "you get what you get, shut up and be happy with it". I think everyone understands that there are limits as to what is reasonable to ask for and expect. What I was trying to say was just that I think it's reasonable for someone to try to get the parts they prefer if it means holding off on production for a few months. What I got out of Dade's comment about having to wait was "well, it's not available now but will be? No problem, I'll hold off till then because to me, it's worth the trade off of waiting a little longer to getting exactly what I want".

And from what I understand about how busy Kifaru has been, I don't think that a customer waiting for a few months is going to put them out of business. All it means is that someone will just be ahead of you in line. On a somewhat related note, if a customer really liked the light or dark webbing, would they be able to ask that Kifaru hold off on the production of their pack until that color became available?

eggroll
10-10-2005, 04:54 PM
GearGuy8654
Lighten up Francis!
That comment was in jest (hence the silly emoticon), nor was it directed towards you. Now if "creative" insults are your bailiwick, then whatever, theres no need to populate the board with it. Gotta problem with that, then do PM me.

The idea of having every single bit of hardware of kit&amp;kaboodle match is silly to a certain extent, especially when in use, and the gear then turns a certain shade of whatever environ you're in. Hence paint or those with an initiative streak in them will be able to find the appropriate hardware for their environ.

that being said, Kifaru has very much so done their due diligence in fulfilling material requirements. To say that "Second, when you pay several hundred dollars for something, I don't think it's too much to ask that you get what you want" is a slap in the face to Kifaru IMO.

That being said, if you have done all this research, what is stopping you from stepping up and building your own gear? /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif



EGG

Hanzo
10-10-2005, 05:41 PM
So you think it IS too much to ask to get what you want? I'm confused.

No one is saying that Kifaru isn't delivering what they promised. All we're saying is that it's fair to try to get what you want.

I don't think anyone would argue that Kifaru is the ferrari of packs. That being said, if you were going to lay down the money for a ferrari and they were out of the color you wanted, is it wrong to hold off? Is it wrong to ask if you can get the options you want? No, of course not. You should ask for everything you want. Now, if you can't get it, don't cry over it, just decide at that point if it's still something you want to buy. But to chastize someone for asking if they can get what they want, that's ridiculous.

Custom pack of course is custom to a certain extent. But there's nothing wrong with trying to find out where that extends to.

Oh, and as for your repeated suggestion to everyone to build their own gear, I assume you built your own car right? Your home too? Do you do your own dental work? We all have talents and skills. If you need a product that requires a skill you do not have, you buy it. Just like your car and your house. And just because you can't do it yourself doesn't mean you don't have to right to ask about what you are going to be getting for your hard earned money.

eggroll
10-10-2005, 06:30 PM
there is absolutely nothing wrong with waiting for or wanting to get all the things in life, from packs to dental work.

theres a flaw with your logic about building my car.

I know people and companies can build something better than I, including my truck, my house etc. I do not have a problem with that as those are areas in which I do not have experience, nor time, nor inclination to do, tackle, or engage in.

that being said, somethings in life can be accounted for by making or doing it yourself and there are others in which it is cheaper in time and $$ to engage someone else with the expertise to do.

I know what I am getting with a Kifaru pack, nor was I questioning your need to inquire about the hardware issue. Mel pretty muched summed it all up better than I -

regarding gear - many people do not know what goes into building packs... I can tell you from personal observation that the Kifaru folks have bent over backwards trying to satisfy the needs of all or a significant majority of their buying public. That being said, they made the decision about utilizing TAN hardware based on availability and 'best overall choice' in suppliers. I am sure that they would engage in OD hardware if a suitable supply line that met Kifarus standards was available.

Oh yeah, I am not 'chastising' anyone, I am being my abrasive self /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Hanzo
10-10-2005, 06:35 PM
Right on. I'm glad we saw eye to eye because I hate arguing over crap like this. You know what they say about arguing on the internet. /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

eggroll
10-10-2005, 06:59 PM
that being said

how is the weather in San Dog?

Mel
10-10-2005, 07:03 PM
Hey guys, I think some of you are getting confused as to who's saying what to who /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif ! I look at it as just some good natured digs at each other that shouldn't be taken very seriously /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif .

It never hurts to ask and see if a special need or requirement is possible. The answers to the questions posted here are in some of my posts above:

October 5, 2005 01:04
October 10, 2005 00:37
October 10, 2005 18:23

If anyone is still confused, let me know and I'll try and explain it better, but I think it's all good /images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif .

Mel

Hanzo
10-10-2005, 07:09 PM
Egg,

Not bad, but it'd be a lot better if the Chargers would pull their heads out of their third point of contact against the Steelers.

In case you were seriously wondering, it's nice now but it's supposed to heat up again later this week. I'm waiting for it to get "cold".

GearGuy8654
10-10-2005, 07:54 PM
Its their fourth point of contact, leg!!! Hey Hanzo, do you know what holds up a chicken's butt?

As far as gear building goes, I happen to dabble in it a little bit, but why when I can get myself and my guys gear from places that make better gear.

My whole point is this, color is a moot point when it gets dirty and it is a lot easier to start with earth tones. You can always darken up a light piece of gear, but it is extremely difficult to lighten up a dark piece of gear. Who cares if the buckles are tan or the webbing is light, so long as they arent black or pink or come with lace on them.

molsen
10-10-2005, 08:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by GearGuy8654:
Before anyone asks or questions me, I buy and research gear for my unit and have done a lot of research on this stuff.</div></div>Exactly how many units with Recon Marines are there in eastern Washington?

GearGuy8654
10-11-2005, 05:55 AM
Im out of the Corps and in the WA Guard, now you tell me what NG units are in Eastern WA. And if enquiring minds want to know, there is a Reserve Recon company a few hours away in Montana. But you probably already know that huh.

I am not trying to make this a pissing contest with anyone and I know that you are here to try and stick up for your buddy, so if you have any more interesting thoughts or questions, feel free to PM me as we do not need for this to continue on the board; it is not productive.

imported_airsupport
10-11-2005, 08:05 AM
+1 GG